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View Poll Results: Which group of cities is best?
NY, LA, Chicago, Washington, Toronto, SF 15 28.30%
London, Paris, Berlin, Madrid, Brussels, Moscow 38 71.70%
Voters: 53. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 03-09-2021, 11:01 AM
 
Location: In the heights
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minato ku View Post
More like in the top 20.

Moscow metro : 2,560.7 million
Paris metro : 1,497.7 million (big strike in the end of 2019, 1,559 million in 2018)
London underground : 1,337 million
Saint Petersburg Metro : 762.5 million
Madrid Metro : 677.5 million
Berlin U-Bahn : 596 million
Kyiv Metro : 495.3 million
Vienna U-Bahn : 459.8 million
Prague Metro : 440.5 million
Munich U-Bahn : 429 million
Barcelona Metro : 411.9 million
Milan Metro : 386.8 million
Stockholm Metro : 355 million
Budapest Metro : 354.0 million
Rome Metro : 320 million
Minsk Metro : 293.7 million
Athens Metro : 259.2 million
Hamburg U-Bahn : 249.5 million
Toronto : 231,7 million

(Note APTA ridership data count twice people who transfer between lines ).

It's interesting trying to understand the discrepancy between these Toronto numbers and that posted by TTC and listed under wikipedia's list of metro systems's Toronto numbers which states 474.5 million riders which would slot it in at the 8th spot after Kyiv. I reckon it's probably from classification of linked vs unlinked trips and possbly Line 3 Scarborough being counted as "light rapid" transit and therefore not included in the count you have though that latter bit can't possibly account for such a massive discrepancy alone since obviously Line 3's rather short service length running outside of downtown can't possibly be half the ridership. I'm curious as to where the numbers you have are from.

Last edited by OyCrumbler; 03-09-2021 at 11:30 AM..
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Old 03-09-2021, 11:48 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
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At a quick glance I've ridden the metro (and taken public transport) in most of the cities on that list (15-17 I think) and Toronto's system has less coverage than all of them. This is true of Montreal's system as well BTW. Probably any city in the US or Canada (even NYC maybe) would suffer in that type of apples-to-apples comparison.
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Old 03-09-2021, 12:12 PM
 
Location: In the heights
28,954 posts, read 28,093,203 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
At a quick glance I've ridden the metro (and taken public transport) in most of the cities on that list (15-17 I think) and Toronto's system has less coverage than all of them. This is true of Montreal's system as well BTW. Probably any city in the US or Canada (even NYC maybe) would suffer in that type of apples-to-apples comparison.

I agree on Toronto's being lesser on the overall transit network, but I believe that a large component of that is the commuter rail system in many parts of Europe, sometimes termed as S-Bahn in Germanic countries and sometimes termed RER in French speaking countries, function as a second system in a way that GO Transit commuter rail and RTM do not. It would certainly make sense for NA cities to go for such though as many North American cities have some pretty good existing rail infrastructure and development around such that they can leverage.
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Old 03-10-2021, 08:32 AM
 
Location: NJ (Prv. SYR, BOS, NYC, GSO, MCO)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newdixiegirl View Post
I agree with that poster. I grew up in Toronto and Montréal, and I LOVE Philly.
Nah philly don't hold a torch to about 5-7 listed us cities. Even some canadian ones too
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Old 03-13-2021, 03:51 AM
 
Location: Bologna, Italy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanLuis View Post
Toronto currently has 4 metro lines.

oh yeah but two of them seem to be extensions of the two older lines. I mean, sure, but a city that big should have a more extensive system. The Montréal network for instance is much better.


For instance I grew up in Lyon which also has 4 metro lines while it's much smaller (similar to Ottawa or Winnipeg maybe, but denser than each), with also 5 or 6 tram lines.



The problem with Toronto's metro is that many areas a re completely out of the system.
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Old 03-13-2021, 07:36 AM
 
Location: In the heights
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Quote:
Originally Posted by forgotten username View Post
oh yeah but two of them seem to be extensions of the two older lines. I mean, sure, but a city that big should have a more extensive system. The Montréal network for instance is much better.


For instance I grew up in Lyon which also has 4 metro lines while it's much smaller (similar to Ottawa or Winnipeg maybe, but denser than each), with also 5 or 6 tram lines.



The problem with Toronto's metro is that many areas a re completely out of the system.

Toronto's system should definitely improve, but I think going by the number of metro lines isn't a great comparison because it doesn't take into account how long those lines are or how they're placed or run. Lyon may have 4 metro lines, but the system length, number of stations, and ridership for Toronto are roughly double those of Lyon's. One thing to note about Toronto's system is that its most popular line does a weird U shape that goes into downtown and loops back out so that it essentially runs a bit like what most other systems might have as two separate lines. A future planned improvement for Toronto's subway would actually eliminate a line as it would essentially convert Line 3 into a portion of Line 2.



Another note is that for about the same area defined for a metropolitan area of ~6000 square km, Lyon has 2,310,850 in 2016 and Ottawa had 1,323,783 in 2016 and Winnipeg had 778,489 in 2016. Lyon's a significantly larger city though that doesn't mean Ottawa and Winnipeg shouldn't work on having better transit systems. It also doesn't take away from the fact that Lyon has a great mass transit system for a metropolitan area of its size. I would really love to visit some time!
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Old 03-13-2021, 09:42 AM
 
Location: Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by forgotten username View Post
oh yeah but two of them seem to be extensions of the two older lines. I mean, sure, but a city that big should have a more extensive system. The Montréal network for instance is much better.


For instance I grew up in Lyon which also has 4 metro lines while it's much smaller (similar to Ottawa or Winnipeg maybe, but denser than each), with also 5 or 6 tram lines.



The problem with Toronto's metro is that many areas a re completely out of the system.
They are not extensions they are completely separate lines. There are currently four lines. Line 5 will be complete next year, that line will stretch across town. Line six will be complete in 2024, and as mentioned by the poster above the current line 3 will become part of line 2 and a entirely new line 3 subway line will be built.

I agree at the moment MTL is better, but after Toronto is done with all its new lines and extensions, I am not sure that will still be the case. Like I said before Toronto is also working on improving and increasing its commuter train service. The commuter go trains are often overlooked when talking about Toronto rail transit.

Line 5 will be open soon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2gUcnzzcNY

Also some said a while back Toronto has no rail service to the Airport. That is not true, the UP express runs between downtown Union station and Pearson. There also plans to extend line 5 to Pearson airport.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfmU_t_deWw

Last edited by UrbanLuis; 03-13-2021 at 10:10 AM..
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Old 03-13-2021, 09:54 AM
 
Location: Canada
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This is what the current Scarborough line 3 looks like.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=978eopUzgxg


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJHfXykF4xA&t=52s
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Old 03-13-2021, 03:39 PM
 
Location: Bologna, Italy
7,104 posts, read 4,511,599 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
Toronto's system should definitely improve, but I think going by the number of metro lines isn't a great comparison because it doesn't take into account how long those lines are or how they're placed or run. Lyon may have 4 metro lines, but the system length, number of stations, and ridership for Toronto are roughly double those of Lyon's. One thing to note about Toronto's system is that its most popular line does a weird U shape that goes into downtown and loops back out so that it essentially runs a bit like what most other systems might have as two separate lines. A future planned improvement for Toronto's subway would actually eliminate a line as it would essentially convert Line 3 into a portion of Line 2.



Another note is that for about the same area defined for a metropolitan area of ~6000 square km, Lyon has 2,310,850 in 2016 and Ottawa had 1,323,783 in 2016 and Winnipeg had 778,489 in 2016. Lyon's a significantly larger city though that doesn't mean Ottawa and Winnipeg shouldn't work on having better transit systems. It also doesn't take away from the fact that Lyon has a great mass transit system for a metropolitan area of its size. I would really love to visit some time!

Yeah, of course the system length is bigger in Toronto because the city is much more spread out and has more inhabitants, so more ridership as well. I remember when I did my university exchange year at UofT, the french guy who managed the exchange, who was living in Toronto, said something about the "miniature subway" of Lyon which sounded weird to me because I suppose he made a comparison to Paris, but Toronto's system seemed much more limited in comparison. I never understood the loop in Toronto because they should have made it a wider loop to cover more neighborhoods, but then I suppose the city was not as spread out when the subway was built ? I lived on Bay and Dundas and I walked to UofT everyday for 30 minutes because with the metro I would'nt have gotten close enough to the university anyway.



Also yeah it's hard to compare north american city sizes to european city sizes, because often it feels like north american cities are a lot more spread out for the same population and thus have lackluster public transportation systems for their sizes. I'm not sure how they get over 2 million inhabitants for Lyon, the inner city only has half a million, but the suburban area is pretty extended for sure, probably more than Ottawa or Winnipeg indeed, even if it's hard to compare.
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Old 03-13-2021, 03:40 PM
 
Location: Bologna, Italy
7,104 posts, read 4,511,599 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanLuis View Post
They are not extensions they are completely separate lines. There are currently four lines. Line 5 will be complete next year, that line will stretch across town. Line six will be complete in 2024, and as mentioned by the poster above the current line 3 will become part of line 2 and a entirely new line 3 subway line will be built.

I agree at the moment MTL is better, but after Toronto is done with all its new lines and extensions, I am not sure that will still be the case. Like I said before Toronto is also working on improving and increasing its commuter train service. The commuter go trains are often overlooked when talking about Toronto rail transit.

Line 5 will be open soon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2gUcnzzcNY

Also some said a while back Toronto has no rail service to the Airport. That is not true, the UP express runs between downtown Union station and Pearson. There also plans to extend line 5 to Pearson airport.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfmU_t_deWw

Oh yeah the train is important indeed. I think it is necessary to improve because it's an awesome city and it needs better infrastructure.
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