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not only Azerbaijan,but also Georgia and Armenia are not "Western" by any means.. Turkey also not.
I can buy that--like I said, I think the term can be nebulous and inclusion of these was among the furthest extent of what I think there's an argument for being Western. I also feel similarly about Israel and parts of the Americas.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greysholic
No country in Latin America is developed. Not even close.
Religion might not be particularly dominant in East Asia but that's merely one aspect of religion. Judaism is a monotheistic religion like Christianity. They even share the same book, or almost the same book.
And religion is one cultural aspect, in every other aspect of culture East Asia shares nothing with the West. The bottom line is most Israelis are European descendants and have very similar lifestyle as Europeans, they just have more eccentric traits.
Your cut-off for what is or isn't developed, or what "not even close" means isn't necessarily what others or even a majority of people believe. There are multiple countries in both the very high HDI grouping and some in the high inequality-adjusted HDI grouping.
Yea, religion is just one aspect, but the idea that East Asia shares nothing with the West also seems to make your idea of what nothing means questionable. I don't agree with the West including East Asian countries or Japan being included in the poll while some other countries/regions are not, but saying modern East Asia shares nothing with the West is plain silly to me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by petrus.vanholst
Let me say it once again.
1. Taipei looks like what Latin Americans call "Favelas", yet it's supposedly a developed island.
2. Places like China hide their enormous poverty. Outside of the brand new areas that have been bult in the last 20 years, most of China looks pretty backwards. Not the traditional image of China that it's sold to the West. China does a great job at hiding it though.
3. Outside Japan, and Singapore, and South Korea (The only REAL developed countries in Asia) most of Asia is poorer than the most countries of Latin America.
That image of Taiwan is from July, 1972 which is towards the beginning of the boom decades of the 70s and 80s. GDP per capita has gone up by ~53,550% since then. It's kind of insane that you think this was a reasonable argument--when you make arguments this wildly and obviously off, it sort of disinclines people from believing you. You should consider finding something better to do with your life or at least doing better at what you're doing with your life.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 01-13-2022 at 10:36 AM..
If you compare the bulk of south America to the bulk of Asia. You will find South America is more developed.
Not all of Asia is South Korea, Japan and Singapore.
What sets Latin America back is its tremendous inequality.
The wealth gap in Europe is smaller, in Latin America it falls on both extremes of the spectrum hence it looks worse on paper than it actually is.
China (your own homeland) for example is renown for hiding its poverty.
A slum in South America
Notice the concrete made homes, the direct tv antennas, the solar panel providing the community with electricity.
A slum in Asia
Notice the open sewage, the river infested with floating trash, there is even a dog's carcass.
South american here.
It's difficult to measure the real poverty here because they are not in the cities. Yes, cities like São Paulo, Rio, Buenos Aires, Santiago, have almost 100% of sewage collection coverage, piped water and electricity, even in the poorest areas, thus Asian-like slums here are rare; however the real poverty is in the rural areas. The Amazon Basin, though famous because of the biodiversity, is extremely poor.
Indeed, Latin America and Asia are completely distinct regions, with a distinct history and a distinct mindset. Causes of poverty in each region are not the same.
No. The vast majority of Israeli Jews are European descendents according to Israel's census.
Greece and Denmark have far more in common than any non-Western country has with either of them.
Even more nonsense. Certain countries are more developed amongst developed countries, but when a country reaches a certain point, it should be considered developed. Latin America has not.
I also don't see how Germany is considered fully developed when for example Australia isn't. Australia has higher income, higher wealth, and higher life expectancy.
And finally, Israel's income is very similar to Germany now. Israel's life expectancy is also higher than Germany, the Netherlands, Denmark, and Austria.
If anything that simply means HDI needs to update their goalpost.
Then you have not been to either, Greece is not a different world to lebanon, turkey,Jordan, israel. While Denmark is a world apart from Greece and all those other named countries. Nordic lifestyle, social dynamics, relationship genders, concept of family, friendships, personal-space is a different world from Greece.
There is far far bigger difference between northern italy and Austria than between Greece,South Italy, Tunisia, Lebanon, Turkey, Jordan and Israel.
Let Alone the even larger gap between Greece (Comparable to South italy) and a country like Denmark, which is extremely germanic and southern scandinavian at the same time.
The only things that used to unify Europe was christianism.. but religion is weaker than ever.. so there are little common bounds between european nations..
Have fun having yet another account deleted. You need to see a shrink.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler
Your cut-off for what is or isn't developed, or what "not even close" means isn't necessarily what others or even a majority of people believe. There are multiple countries in both the very high HDI grouping and some in the high inequality-adjusted HDI grouping.
By the most common definition, developed countries are Western Europe, North America, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, Asian Tigers, and Israel. It's the most widely accepted cut-off by most organisations and corporations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler
Yea, religion is just one aspect, but the idea that East Asia shares nothing with the West also seems to make your idea of what nothing means questionable. I don't agree with the West including East Asian countries or Japan being included in the poll while some other countries/regions are not, but saying modern East Asia shares nothing with the West is plain silly to me.
What does modern East Asia share with the West?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fabio SBA
Asian-like slums here are rare
Stop engaging Irene.
And those slums don't exist here anymore. She's just insane.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fabio SBA
Indeed, Latin America and Asia are completely distinct regions, with a distinct history and a distinct mindset. Causes of poverty in each region are not the same.
I don't think anyone has ever argued that they are not completely distinct. I've only argued that no South American country is developed, which is true. Even the wealthiest countries in LatAm are poor compared to developed countries in Asia, contrary to Irene's belief.
Nominal GDP per capita in $ (IMF 2022 estimates)
Japan - 43.12k
Italy - 38.17k
South Korea - 36.79k
Taiwan - 36.23k
Spain - 33.17k
Uruguay - 17.93k
Chile - 17.7k
Argentina - 10.45k
Brazil - 8.46k (ouch)
Mean wealth per adult in $ (Credit Suisse 2021 Wealth Report)
Germany - 268,681
Japan - 256,596
Taiwan - 238,862
South Korea - 211,369
Uruguay - 60,914
Chile - 53,591
Brazil - 18,272
Argentina - 7,224 (ouch)
Median wealth per adult in $ (Credit Suisse 2021 Wealth Report)
Japan - 122,980
Taiwan - 93,044
South Korea - 89,671
Germany - 65,374
Uruguay - 22,088
Chile - 17,747
Brazil - 3,469
Argentina - 2,157
Net financial assets per capita in € (Allianz A.G. 2021 Wealth Report)
The Netherlands - 128,557
Taiwan - 117,659
Japan - 100,471
United Kingdom - 90,018
France - 66,562
Germany - 61,760
Korea - 36,467
Chile - 17,431
Brazil - 5,779
Argentina - 931
The wealth data should be taken with a grain of salt, but the gap is pretty clear. It's not even close.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Travel4Food
The only things that used to unify Europe was christianism.. but religion is weaker than ever.. so there are little common bounds between european nations..
They are both in the EU. I would say that's a very strong bond.
Ad hominem attacks make you lose.
An outdate picture does not invalidate me, especially because a lot of areas of Taipei still look like that.
Much cleaner in 2018 when I was there than on my image, but not exactly Switzerland!
Oh, it's not just the ad hominem. You're literally taking what is obviously a very old picture that's a snapshot of one tiny area of a country from about a half-century ago to try to make a point about the level of development of a country today. Saying that's stupid isn't really ad hominem if it's just what it is.
Have fun having yet another account deleted. You need to see a shrink.
By the most common definition, developed countries are Western Europe, North America, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, Asian Tigers, and Israel. It's the most widely accepted cut-off by most organisations and corporations.
What does modern East Asia share with the West?
Stop engaging Irene.
And those slums don't exist here anymore. She's just insane.
I don't think anyone has ever argued that they are not completely distinct. I've only argued that no South American country is developed, which is true. Even the wealthiest countries in LatAm are poor compared to developed countries in Asia, contrary to Irene's belief.
Nominal GDP per capita in $ (IMF 2022 estimates)
Japan - 43.12k
Italy - 38.17k
South Korea - 36.79k
Taiwan - 36.23k
Spain - 33.17k
Uruguay - 17.93k
Chile - 17.7k
Argentina - 10.45k
Brazil - 8.46k (ouch)
Mean wealth per adult in $ (Credit Suisse 2021 Wealth Report)
Germany - 268,681
Japan - 256,596
Taiwan - 238,862
South Korea - 211,369
Uruguay - 60,914
Chile - 53,591
Brazil - 18,272
Argentina - 7,224 (ouch)
Median wealth per adult in $ (Credit Suisse 2021 Wealth Report)
Japan - 122,980
Taiwan - 93,044
South Korea - 89,671
Germany - 65,374
Uruguay - 22,088
Chile - 17,747
Brazil - 3,469
Argentina - 2,157
Net financial assets per capita in € (Allianz A.G. 2021 Wealth Report)
The Netherlands - 128,557
Taiwan - 117,659
Japan - 100,471
United Kingdom - 90,018
France - 66,562
Germany - 61,760
Korea - 36,467
Chile - 17,431
Brazil - 5,779
Argentina - 931
The wealth data should be taken with a grain of salt, but the gap is pretty clear. It's not even close.
They are both in the EU. I would say that's a very strong bond.
There is not a set definition or criteria of developed countries and of the ones that are more frequently cited, there are Latin American countries that are included.
Quote:
Originally Posted by petrus.vanholst
Oycrumbler: Asia and Europe share nothing in common.
Asian civilizations predate Europe and as a region of the world it has developed differently from Europeans civilizationS (Because Russia has developed parallel to Western Europe)
It's not like Asia and Europe developed completely separately from each other and there's been ample, long-running exchange throughout history and an increasing intensity of trade and media over the last century. There were a few fairly independent developments of sedentary civilization way back in history as it's reasonable to say something like the sedentary civilization millennia of the Yellow River and the Fertile Crescent were very independent each other though with a lot of what amounts to the societal equivalent of convergent evolution, but that was millennia ago. It's been a lot of interchange since then and pretty early on as it's still millennia ago, there was a pretty large network of trade and exchange of ideas of Europe, Northern Africa and the horn of Africa/Ethiopian highlands, and the broad expanse of Asia outside of far northern areas of modern day Russia, and to a more limited extent until later on, Sahelian and East Africa. The European civilizations also stem in large part from a common root of developments in the Fertile Crescent. I think it's going to be hard to believe any assessment you make because your reasoning can be so faulty that you think a picture from five decades ago was a good indication of how developed a country is now.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 01-14-2022 at 10:49 AM..
Once again, China's rise is noticeable because China is enormous, not because China has truly become a land of prosperity for all.
China is not an example for anything.
I would prefer to live in a less developed country if it has plenty of democracy and freedom (such as Uruguay) than living in any city of China, no matter how rich is it, and this includes Shanghai. Some things are not worthy of money.
1. Gresholic argues that Asia is more developed than Latin America by citing Japan, South Korea and Singapore statistical data in comparison with Latin America.
He lefts out the rest of Asia which is actually less developed than the most important countries in Latin America.
If Asia was only Japan, South Korea and Singapore I'd be agreement, but Asia is also home to Cambodia, China, Laos, Indonesia, Afghanistan, Bangladesh, India, Pakistan, Nepal and a lot more countries far behind Latin America economically.
Once again, China's rise is noticeable because China is enormous, not because China has truly become a land of prosperity for all.
--------------------------------
2. Oycrumbler, Asia, Europe and Africa are the old world and they had connections going back, it does not mean they are all the same.
PS: A picture of Taiwan was out of date the rest of my comment stands. Learn to let go mate!
You're incorrect about what Greysholic argued--he was saying that no South American country is developed and not even close to being developed (with which I disagreed) while there are developed East Asian countries--not that all Asian countries are developed or are more developed than Latin American countries. That's your own doing. He also certainly is not arguing or has ever argued that China as a place that has "truly become a land of prosperity for all". I would think you've been on these boards long enough and frequent enough to have caught that.
I didn't say Asia, Europe, and Africa (though mostly just Northern Africa and parts of East Africa) were all the same--only that they had a lot of commonalities and that Greyholic's comment that East Asia and Europe are nothing alike is unreasonable.
You don't need a PS--you were citing that picture you posted as your proof. No one forced you to both argue a point that's wrong, use poor reasoning to argue it, and cite ridiculous proof as support for your argument. You had it wrong, and you had no other stated rationale for arguing about Taiwan aside from you thinking it looked slummy via citing an image from half a century ago. That's a pretty bad argument by itself since there will be other commonly recognized as developed countries and countries of "the West" that have parts that can look "slummy" now especially more backwoods areas or areas of a country that were hit hard by deindustrialization or depopulation, but it's even worse that on top of that you thought pointing to a half-century old picture of one area was a sensible argument or reasonable proof.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 01-14-2022 at 04:29 PM..
China is not an example for anything.
I would prefer to live in a less developed country if it has plenty of democracy and freedom (such as Uruguay) than living in any city of China, no matter how rich is it, and this includes Shanghai. Some things are not worthy of money.
Uruguay's sort of an easy pick though because its quality of life by most measures, HDI, GDP per capita, etc. compare well with China as do several other Latin American countries. Uruguay also has fairly little crime and violence and that's nice, too.
I do think China, but more broadly East Asia outside of Mongolia and North Korea, are good examples for pretty good results via some emphasis on STEMs education and infrastructure development.
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