Best language to know (schools, live in, teach)

[caseras]

Originally Posted by Neutre

And nobody can deny that English is relatively easy due to the factors mentioned.

No grammatical genders is easier than two or three.
No cases is easier than two or more cases.
The conjugation of English is easier than the one where each verb has a different form according to person and number. Not to mention the distinct verbs between perfective vs. imperfective, or the existence of extra forms for subjunctive or Konjunktiv, or the differentiation of verb forms depending on whom you are talking to, etc. etc.
The use of the simple you is easier than those languages where one has to think about choosing between two or more options.
Added to all those, the fact that English is so widespread and so easily accesible makes it even easier.

Totally agree, however, english and the tons of words and verbs it has, is sometimes very hard to understand for non english speaker....

[Neutre]

Originally Posted by caseras

I don't agree with you about that. Sorry but the french has by far more things very hard and very complicated to give than the spanish language. The real problem with the spanish is the form of time they use the subjuntivo

As for the rest of the verbal form they are very closed to the french excepted there are still less exceptions in spanish than in french (just look at the 3rd group in french and the one in spanish, actually the 3rd group as the french one doesn't exist in spanish). Also there are a lot of exceptions about spelling, conjugation, grammar in french whose don't exist in spanish.


the way how the french and spanish speak is very hard to understand, but again, I'd think the spanish is easier to understand. It's almost impossible to understand one word in french. They are used to swallow the half of all the words and sometimes if one word is differently used it will not make the same sound


Of course it's just my opinion

I agree with most of what you said.

Concerning what I said, I'd like to make clear that I'm focusing upon the grammar. I realize that the French orthography is more complicated than Spanish.

IMO at least, some of the things that make French easier than Spanish grammatically:


Past tense:
French uses only passé composé, imparfait.
Spanish has imperfecto, indefinido, and pretérito perfecto.
Then there's the past subjunctive with two variations (-ra & -se), added with the compuesto forms, all used in normal day to day Spanish.
Each set has six or five forms (in imperfecto and subjuntivo, yo, ella, él, usted have the same verb form).

So if you think about it, in speaking French, one only needs to remember the forms of être and avoir plus the past participle, and imparfait. Not to mention that often, je, tu, elle/il/on, elles/ils have the same pronunciation.

Present tense:
French present participle is not used as in Spanish. For example you don't really say *je suis lisant in French, whereas estoy leyendo sounds quite normal in Spanish.
Again, the forms for je, tu, elle/il/on, elles/ils in the present tense often have same pronunciation.

Others:
French has only être whereas Spanish has estar & ser
In French there are only tu and vous for you. Spanish has vos, tú, vosotros, usted and ustedes. Each with a different set of conjugation and oblique forms.
This one may not seem to be very important, but in speaking French it's usual to replace nous with on, which has the same conjugation as elle/il, which as I've said again often sounds the same as the verb forms of je, tu, elles/ils.

[caseras]

Originally Posted by Neutre

I agree with most of what you said.

Concerning what I said, I'd like to make clear that I'm focusing upon the grammar. I realize that the French orthography is more complicated than Spanish.

IMO at least, some of the things that make French easier than Spanish grammatically:


Past tense:
French uses only passé composé, imparfait.
Spanish has imperfecto, indefinido, and pretérito perfecto.
Then there's the past subjunctive with two variations (-ra & -se), added with the compuesto forms, all used in normal day to day Spanish.
Each set has six or five forms (in imperfecto and subjuntivo, yo, ella, él, usted have the same verb form).

True but the french use as well : futur antérieur (j'aurai pu) used as the past and plus que parfait (j'avais pu). The worst is the futur antérieur can be very annoying since you can say j'aurai pu (the past) and j'aurais pu (conditionnal form)... the same pronunciation of course but far to have got the same meaning....

You has forgotten to say that when you use a participe passé (by far the worst french verbal form and it is the one used in the passé composé) there are at least a dozen of rules whose make almost impossible to a non french speaker to write (even for the french) and sometimes read it. Here is some examples :

les bougies que j'ai aimé allumer.
j'ai aimées les bougies
les bougies que j'ai aimées
les hommes que j'ai aimés
j'ai aimé les hommes
etc....

Of course, I pass on the fact that some verbs don't apply the same rules than the others ; example : faire, se succéder (les flammes ont succédées .... etc), and I am ready to admit the passé simple is not very used, not so often.....

So if you think about it, in speaking French, one only needs to remember the forms of être and avoir plus the past participle, and imparfait. Not to mention that often, je, tu, elle/il/on, elles/ils have the same pronunciation.

Present tense:
French present participle is not used as in Spanish. For example you don't really say *je suis lisant in French, whereas estoy leyendo sounds quite normal in Spanish.

Well said, and very true.

Again, the forms for je, tu, elle/il/on, elles/ils in the present tense often have same pronunciation.

not often, have always the same pronunciation

Others:
French has only être whereas Spanish has estar & ser
In French there are only tu and vous for you. Spanish has vos, tú, vosotros, usted and ustedes. Each with a different set of conjugation and oblique forms.

Are you sure ? Because I thought the only form with set of conjugation were tú and vosotros. as for usted, ustedes they are different form made for pronominal from.... but I can be wrong....


vos means votre in french

This one may not seem to be very important, but in speaking French it's usual to replace nous with on, which has the same conjugation as elle/il, which as I've said again often sounds the same as the verb forms of je, tu, elles/ils.

lol


Last thing about the french :
pouvoir (vouloir, valoir, etc....)
coudre (moudre, résoudre, etc...)
peindre ( feindre, teindre, etc...)

here is the list made in wikipedia

3ème groupe (http://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/Annexe:Conjugaison_fran%C3%A7aise:Troisi%C3%A8me_g roupe - broken link)

[Neutre]

Originally Posted by caseras

True but the french use as well : futur antérieur (j'aurai pu) used as the past and plus que parfait (j'avais pu). The worst is the futur antérieur can be very annoying since you can say j'aurai pu (the past) and j'aurais pu (conditionnal form)...

You're right, I can't remember having heard habré podido used in normal daily conversation. Había podido and habría podido don't sound that strange, though.
Is j'aurai pu something you don't hear in daily conversations in French?

the same pronunciation of course but far to have got the same meaning....

Usually you can get it from the context. That's the thing about French: redundant spelling..

You has forgotten to say that when you use a participe passé (by far the worst french verbal form and it is the one used in the passé composé) there are at least a dozen of rules whose make almost impossible to a non french speaker to write (even for the french) and sometimes read it. Here is some examples :

les bougies que j'ai aimé allumer.
j'ai aimées les bougies
les bougies que j'ai aimées
les hommes que j'ai aimés
j'ai aimé les hommes
etc....

Of course, I pass on the fact that some verbs don't apply the same rules than the others ; example : faire, se succéder (les flammes ont succédées .... etc), and I am ready to admit the passé simple is not very used, not so often.....

You're right. I don't remember the rules anymore.
Again, aimé, aimée, aimés, and aimées have all the same pronunciation.
Spelling redundance..
French orthography is .

Are you sure ? Because I thought the only form with set of conjugation were tú and vosotros. as for usted, ustedes they are different form made for pronominal from.... but I can be wrong....

Usted functions just like ella/él, and ustedes like ellos.

"I like you" can be rendered as:
(Vos) me gustás.
(Tú) me gustas.
(Vosotros) me gustáis.
(Usted) me gusta.
(Ustedes) me gustan.

"I see you":
1) Te veo.
2) Os veo.
3) Lo veo.
4) La veo.
5) Le veo.
6) Los veo.
7) Las veo.
8) Les veo.

3 & 5 also mean "I see him"
4 & 5 also mean "I see her"
6 - 8 also mean "I see them"


It's pretty confusing because they get so easily mixed up in Spanish. I just watched a movie where all forms were to be found.

[JMT]

Originally Posted by caseras

les bougies que j'ai aimé allumer.
j'ai aimées les bougies
les bougies que j'ai aimées
les hommes que j'ai aimés
j'ai aimé les hommes
etc....

Of course, I pass on the fact that some verbs don't apply the same rules than the others ; example : faire, se succéder (les flammes ont succédées .... etc)

You made a couple of mistakes.

j'ai aimées les bougies is incorrect. There is no agreement because the direct object is after the past participle. So it should be j'ai aimé les bougies.

les flammes ont succédées is incorrect for the same reason as above. It should be les flammes ont succédé.

[Käsebrot]

Hey everybody!
I'm new here and I think your discussion is quite interesting!

les bougies que j'ai aimé allumer.

This is wrong too as the conjugated verb (ai from avoir - to have) is after a direct object, so it must be: Les bougies que j'ai aimées allumer....

You're right, I can't remember having heard habré podido used in normal daily conversation.

All these forms aren't very used in daily conversation. You don't use "I will have been able to..." very often as well, don't you?

Habré podido -> J'aurai pu
Había podido -> J'avais pu
Habría podido -> J'aurais pu

5) Le veo.
8) Les veo.

I think, despite the fact that these forms are used in certain areas like Madrid, they aren't accepted by the "Real Academica Española", are they?

vos means votre in french

No, it doesn't. Vos means (in Spanish) tú and is used in some countries in Latinamerica, especially Argentina.
Votre is vuestro/a or su in Spanish. The word vos existes in French as well, where it means vuestros/as or sus in Spanish.

Coming back to the topic, I would recommend learning Spanish to you. It's very useful in the US and in Latinamerika and most parts of the Caribbeans. Moreover, people in Italy may understand you.
French is only useful in France, Belgium (where you can speak Dutch and German as well), Switzerland (where German is the main language) and a lot of North African countries, though it will take you a lot of time to learn French good enough to understand the people there as their French is quite different to the French of France

Chinese would be quite interesting as well...

[caseras]

Originally Posted by JMT

You made a couple of mistakes.

j'ai aimées les bougies is incorrect. There is no agreement because the direct object is after the past participle. So it should be j'ai aimé les bougies.

Yes sorry, my bad ! unfortunaly your rule is a bad one : for example : les vents qu'il y a eu or les soins qu'il a fallu. As you can see in these sentences the COD is before the verb but the past participle didn't move because it is a "verbe impersonnel".

les flammes ont succédées is incorrect for the same reason as above. It should be les flammes ont succédé.

my mistake is not here, my mistake is the sentence is totally incorrect for this example. Actually, the good sentence is : les flammes se sont succédées. Verbe pronominal have to follow the subject. Another exception.

[caseras]

Originally Posted by Käsebrot

Hey everybody!
I'm new here and I think your discussion is quite interesting!


This is wrong too as the conjugated verb (ai from avoir - to have) is after a direct object, so it must be: Les bougies que j'ai aimées allumer....

not really, it is a good form because the second verb make the action, and it's the verb which make the action which decides if the past participle has to be conjuged or not. The action here it's not aimé but allumer.

j'ai aimé allumer quoi ? les bougies. nothing to do with j'ai aimé quoi ? allumer les bougies or just allumer is correct....

All these forms aren't very used in daily conversation. You don't use "I will have been able to..." very often as well, don't you?

Habré podido -> J'aurai pu
Había podido -> J'avais pu
Habría podido -> J'aurais pu

What is your question ? is it about the french or about the spanish. Since in french all you have said here is often used.

No, it doesn't. Vos means (in Spanish) tú and is used in some countries in Latinamerica, especially Argentina.
Votre is vuestro/a or su in Spanish. The word vos existes in French as well, where it means vuestros/as or sus in Spanish.

Thank you, I wasn't sure.

Coming back to the topic, I would recommend learning Spanish to you. It's very useful in the US and in Latinamerika and most parts of the Caribbeans. Moreover, people in Italy may understand you.

It's a myth.

French is only useful in France, Belgium (where you can speak Dutch and German as well),

It's untrue, the belgium people don't speak german fluently, and the wallon has just begun to learn flemish.

Switzerland (where German is the main language) and a lot of North African countries,

And Caribbeans isles, and a large part of africa you didn't mention here, and in Asia especially Vietnam. The french is the most learnt as a second language.

though it will take you a lot of time to learn French good enough to understand the people there as their French is quite different to the French of France

The way you seem writing french tell me something else.

Chinese would be quite interesting as well...

IMO, Chinese is the most interesting language to learn for buisness.

[caseras]

Originally Posted by Neutre

You're right, I can't remember having heard habré podido used in normal daily conversation. Había podido and habría podido don't sound that strange, though.
Is j'aurai pu something you don't hear in daily conversations in French?

This form is very used yes.

Usually you can get it from the context. That's the thing about French: redundant spelling..

You're right. I don't remember the rules anymore.
Again, aimé, aimée, aimés, and aimées have all the same pronunciation.
Spelling redundance..
French orthography is .

Yes very hard, even for the french, read the prior post....

Usted functions just like ella/él, and ustedes like ellos.

"I like you" can be rendered as:
(Vos) me gustás.
(Tú) me gustas.
(Vosotros) me gustáis.
(Usted) me gusta.
(Ustedes) me gustan.

"I see you":
1) Te veo.
2) Os veo.
3) Lo veo.
4) La veo.
5) Le veo.
6) Los veo.
7) Las veo.
8) Les veo.

3 & 5 also mean "I see him"
4 & 5 also mean "I see her"
6 - 8 also mean "I see them"

There is something like this in french, but it seems less complicated.

It's pretty confusing because they get so easily mixed up in Spanish. I just watched a movie where all forms were to be found.

lol actually this is pretty confusing the fact you are able to watch this kind of movie

[WildWestDude]

The language that has been around for ever, is the richest in vocabulary, is where we borrow new words from and is older than Latin is GREEK! Its is also the language of the Roseta Stone, indicating it might be even older than egyptian.

By knowing this language, you can pick up the roots of many words. The medical field especially is full of greek derived words as well as astronomy and many other sciences.

Some not so well derivations of words:
Spain- from "eis pan gia" or Ispania or "to the end of the earth" (at that time)
Nippon (what Japanese call their country) "eis apo anatoly" or' "to the east" abreviated to "Iaponia" to later Nippon
Istanbul/ old Constantinople, from "eis tin poli" or "to the City" and later pronounced Istanbul by the Turks
Another example is the word catastrophe which be found in more languages than not.