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Old 06-08-2009, 12:06 PM
 
186 posts, read 760,188 times
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There are too many means to measure intelligence to draw a reasonable conclusion.
What about the guys who invented the wheel and fire?? What nationality do you suppose they were??

I think the thread poses a childish question.
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Old 06-08-2009, 02:58 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh
2,236 posts, read 6,853,764 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NihonKitty View Post
The chinese invented the first compass,fire arms, printing, aviation and agricultural techniques which lead to factories and mass producing in europe.
Aviation? Nope sorry. Ever hear of Archytas? Icarus? Bartolomeu Lourenço de Gusmão? The Wright Brothers? No you're totally right, the Europeans never did anything on their own in aviation...good thing we had the Chinese to copy off of.

Since when did anyone dispute the compass, fire arms, printing and argicultural techniques?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NihonKitty View Post
Give credit where its due.
Ditto. I'm tired of this BS that the Europeans' works are all irrelevant because some dude in China spun stick with a wing on top "creating" the first helicopter. It would be nice for people to quit minimizing Western accomplishments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NihonKitty View Post
Where did i say chinese had a modern technological revolution? I never said it so why are you making it seem like i did? And of course western books don't teach anything about ancient china.
I didn't. I think I made it clear that the Chinese didn't have a modern technological revolution. The point is that the Chinese had blast furnaces 1000 years before the Europeans and still did not produce anywhere near the level of technology the West did.

But I guess you wouldn't be allowed to attribute the ancient Greeks and their philosophical scientific musings that were resurrected in the Middle Ages laying the seeds of the science that produced: medicine, electronics, computers, etc.

I guess you'll also not want to mention that the Europeans had superior astromony during the Middle Ages than the Chinese, eh?

BTW, you can take dozens of classes on the ancient far east at pretty much any U.S. university...even my high school taught classes on it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NihonKitty View Post
Most westerners dont really know anything about the world except what the west did.
Yes. I'm sure the Chinese are in their little classrooms filling their heads about European/American technology and learning the lingua franca...they'll get to that though, just as soon as they're done criminalizing Christianity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NihonKitty View Post
Europeans took chinese military and agricultural technology and rapidly developed it. Incase you dont know history european countries were constantly at war during this period, and how do you win wars? Having the better technology. After the 1500s china was relatively isolated and peaceful which halted increases in military technology while europeans were always trying to make the better gun, or more food to sell. The europeans then used chinese compass and even paddleboats and invaded half of the world and stole their riches and made slaves of the africans while increasing their societies wealth etc. During that time china was taken over by a foreign manchu dynasty, which stifled all development (basically compare it to the catholic church), and then by this time the brits came with improved chinese technology (watch the video), better guns and better rowboats and wrecked havoc on china. And then theres the whole deal with the opium wars and being colonized and raped/pillaged by japan and then the communists. So does that answer your question?
Yeah, yeah...blah, blah, blah. It's like a broken record.."the only reason the Western world has the computer, the internet, advanced medicine, televisions, cellular phones, airplanes, trains, massive scientific advancement is because it is filled with murdering war-mongerers."

The point is that you can't credit China with the advancements of the West when they had 2000 years of the same industry and never did the same thing with it.

Oh, btw, I certainly can't remember the Chinese having slaves.

Last edited by ainulinale; 06-08-2009 at 03:12 PM..
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Old 06-08-2009, 05:47 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh
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Let me just mention a few other things concerning this subject.

(1) No one is taking anything away from the brilliant technological advancement of the Chinese in the past, the Japanese in the modern age, or anyone else for that matter. (In fact, I have quite an interest and love for Japan and Ancient China).

(2) What I do criticize is this bogus notion that Europeans have created their technology at the credit and expense of foreign engineers and slaves.

The fact is that war has existed since the dawn of humanity. This means that at all ages of human existence, there have been exceedingly wealthy civilizations capable of producing massive technology; there have been "oppressed" and exploited people in every one of these societies; there has also been slavery present in societies from China to Egypt to Ancient Meso-America (yes, pre-European).

Yet, for all the wars, oppression, wealth and slavery; no society/civilization has come close to the magnitude and advancement of technology created by the West. Even China which had blast furnaces (and some wars!) for 1000-1500 years before the Europeans had never developed scientifically like the West.

Obviously, most cultures have had their share of outside influence and benefit; but the driving force of European technology and differentiation from other "war-driven" wealthy societies, can almost undoubtedly be traced back to the resurrection of Classical Greek Philosophy in the early Middle Ages.

It was these principles of natural thought (logic) and scientific observation which drove natural inquiry, mostly independent of external wars. Large schools of thought were set up where philosophers and theologians flourished; taxonomy and other scientific ideas began to arise...science arose from natural thinkers and observers, not war-driven or enlisted rulers.

The Greeks mostly developed Trigonometry, and while there were some small understandings of Calculus in Egypt, China and Japan in ancient times, it wasn't until Leibniz laid down a system of rules for manipulating infinitesmals and derivatives (as well as developing the chain and product rules), that Calculus was truly invented.

Now with William Gilbert's study into electricity and magnetism in the 1500s, we have the entire groundwork for modern engineering....Trigonometry, Classical Mechanics, Calculus, Electromagnetism. Such developments were brought about through classical Greek thought, and the magnitude of development has only increased exponentially--from the work on optics, thermodynamics, quantum mechanics, resonance imaging, statistics, etc, etc, etc.

The advancements into general scientific inquiry (Evolutionary Theory, Uniformitarianism, Big Bang Theory, Inflationary Theory, String Theory, Quantum/Statistical Mechanics, Special Theory of Relativity, Modern Atomic Theory, etc.) to more practical technological advancements (computers, televisions/other electronics, light bulbs, cars (combustion engines), trains (steam engines) heavy-than-air flight, photography, etc.) all have been massively and independently developed by Europeans on the principles of Trigonometry, Calculus, Mechanics, and advanced understanding of Electromagnetism (all of which have been mostly developed by Europeans).

So that's my conclusion....if you want to believe that Western Civilization is advanced because of war, slavery and the Chinese, then go ahead! Personally, I find the more sober opinion to be that of recognition of the enormous influence of Greek thought on science, the lesser influential benefits of war/slavery-actualized wealth and outsider engineering influence, and the great ingenuity of European thinkers, scientists, and philosophers.

Last edited by ainulinale; 06-08-2009 at 06:18 PM..
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Old 06-08-2009, 09:00 PM
 
895 posts, read 2,246,242 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ainulinale View Post
Aviation? Nope sorry. Ever hear of Archytas? Icarus? Bartolomeu Lourenço de Gusmão? The Wright Brothers? No you're totally right, the Europeans never did anything on their own in aviation...good thing we had the Chinese to copy off of.
Wow you failed here so bad, the first european to make a glider and the first european to ever have man flight (glider) even said he copied all of his designs from chinese designs. The write brothers also took his glider and made the first plane so yes chinese laid the pre-cursors.


Quote:
Ditto. I'm tired of this BS that the Europeans' works are all irrelevant because some dude in China spun stick with a wing on top "creating" the first helicopter. It would be nice for people to quit minimizing Western accomplishments.
Uh the helicopter was also invented from chinese inventions did you not even watch the video where western scientists even cited the helictopers first invention? It's based off of chinese leaflets/toy where you spin it with your hands and the rotators make it fly. Give credit where its due.

Quote:
Obviously, most cultures have had their share of outside influence and benefit; but the driving force of European technology and differentiation from other "war-driven" wealthy societies, can almost undoubtedly be traced back to the resurrection of Classical Greek Philosophy in the early Middle Ages.
Uh classical thinking yes but when it comes to industry, and warfare the chinese had the biggest influence. CHinese improved european outdated agricultural techniques and the first chain drives and factories, and giving europe the first compass to colonize the world and the first firearms which lead to even better cannons,guns,rockets.
Quote:
I didn't. I think I made it clear that the Chinese didn't have a modern technological revolution. The point is that the Chinese had blast furnaces 1000 years before the Europeans and still did not produce anywhere near the level of technology the West did.
They produced alot more than europe until after the renaissance, did i ever say anything else? Chinese had a different history than the warring european states did so why are you saying this? Just because chinese became peaceful and ruled by foreigners and decided to not develop their guns and colonize half of the world and make themselves rich like europe did doesn't prove anything. Different history.

Quote:
But I guess you wouldn't be allowed to attribute the ancient Greeks and their philosophical scientific musings that were resurrected in the Middle Ages laying the seeds of the science that produced: medicine, electronics, computers, etc.
Yes, but even westerner scientists and historians and if you even just look at the list the ancient chinese invented the most of all the ancient civlizations, the ancient chinese had factories,blast furnaces, guns, rowboats, moveable printing, compass, machines to extract and harness gas and salt etc. This almost seems semi-modern. China in the 1100s almost seems like europe 1700s.

Quote:
I guess you'll also not want to mention that the Europeans had superior astromony during the Middle Ages than the Chinese, eh?
Chinese were the first to invent the 365 calendar day of the year while europeans still believed the world was flat.

Quote:
BTW, you can take dozens of classes on the ancient far east at pretty much any U.S. university...even my high school taught classes on it.



Yes. I'm sure the Chinese are in their little classrooms filling their heads about European/American technology and learning the lingua franca...they'll get to that though, just as soon as they're done criminalizing Christianity.
Yeah youre right, thats why westerners think many inventions were made by the west when they werent. American children learn gutenburg invented moveable type printing when he didnt.



Quote:
Yeah, yeah...blah, blah, blah. It's like a broken record.."the only reason the Western world has the computer, the internet, advanced medicine, televisions, cellular phones, airplanes, trains, massive scientific advancement is because it is filled with murdering war-mongerers."
No, but their history of stealing wealth and using slaves that allowed them to enjoy high incomes and standard of living plays a part and you cant deny that. The europeans who invented those things didnt have any part in the atrocities of the past i am simply talking history.
Quote:
The point is that you can't credit China with the advancements of the West when they had 2000 years of the same industry and never did the same thing with it.
Same thing? China was the fastest growing country technology wise until european renaissance and after the qing dynasty took over china which stiffled all the development. Stop being so ignorant and open your eyes.

Last edited by Bibi12; 06-08-2009 at 09:14 PM..
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Old 06-08-2009, 09:10 PM
 
895 posts, read 2,246,242 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ainulinale View Post
Let me just mention a few other things concerning this subject.

(1) No one is taking anything away from the brilliant technological advancement of the Chinese in the past, the Japanese in the modern age, or anyone else for that matter. (In fact, I have quite an interest and love for Japan and Ancient China).

(2) What I do criticize is this bogus notion that Europeans have created their technology at the credit and expense of foreign engineers and slaves.
You act as if history has 0 role in it. You seriously think if europe didnt take the chinese compass and guns and waged warfare with eachother (which btw military technology is the most important for advancement) europe would have been the same? Or if european colonies did not use slavery and the US didnt use slavery it would be the same? What a slap in the face to all the slaves and people who were colonized.

I dont know why you choose to ignore history, most chinese inventions also came about through war chinas problem is the opposite that it stopped progressing its military technology and stagnated while the qing dynasty took over china and stiffled even more development.
Quote:
So that's my conclusion....if you want to believe that Western Civilization is advanced because of war, slavery and the Chinese, then go ahead! Personally, I find the more sober opinion to be that of recognition of the enormous influence of Greek thought on science, the lesser influential benefits of war/slavery-actualized wealth and outsider engineering influence, and the great ingenuity of European thinkers, scientists, and philosophers.
Of course all the chinese inventions had 0 role in europe of course. You are a western-centric so of course you are only going to recognize greek and european thinkers for the reason of european advancement while completely ignoring china. This is totally expected.

And yes it is because of war,slavery and ancient peoples (greek,egyptian,arab and for industry and warfare the chinese). Almost all advanced warfare inventions came about through war and that includes china. Dont ignore history. It was the chinese first rockets and guns that today have allowed europeans to improve upon those discoviers and technologies and set foot on the moon. Did i ever say chinese went to the moon? No the west did, but give credit where its due and history plays a big role in everything, same thing with china. Chinese need to credit alot of what they had from indian math and thinking and through warfare. But when it comes to westerners like you they get all pissed off that other people besides westerners played a role in the technological revolution.

It is human nature to improve and learn from past accomplishments of other humans. You seem to get all pissed off just because chinese arent western. I bet if I replaced everything with greek you would have 0 problem with what i said since they are western. This isn't some nationalist crap I'm not even chinese, chinese are human like westerners there is nothing wrong in taking and improving and learning from their past achievements which is what europe did. Japan has the higher patent per capita rate than the USA and our companies invent more than the west, and i have absolutely no problem saying the foundations for all of these inventions came from europe/america. There is nothing wrong with taking and improving past technologies just like europe did with chinese agriculture, industry and guns. If everyone had an attitude like you we would all be stuck in the medieval ages since people who cry and get all pissy because they took another countries "invention" and improved upon it. How ridiculous. Give credit where its due chinese technology played a big role in the beggining of european technological revolution.

Last edited by Bibi12; 06-08-2009 at 09:22 PM..
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Old 06-08-2009, 09:46 PM
 
Location: In the heights
31,414 posts, read 30,168,584 times
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Folks, the Old World was intricately tied. Ideas constantly flowed back and forth through the various civilizations in Europe, North Africa, the Middle East, the Iranian Plateau, Central Asia, India, Southeast Asia, and East Asia. Each area influenced each other and added to the entire Old World's knowledge. Just feel good that together, East and West, helped develop the diseases and tools necessary to decimate the rest of the world. United, we are unstoppable!
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Old 06-08-2009, 09:53 PM
 
Location: 60630
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ako View Post
Just out of curiosity, what nationality of people do you think are the smartest?

Personally, I would say Korean because the Koreans in my school are always getting full marks on exams.

I read somewhere a while back that Asians have the highest overall IQ followed by People of European decent.
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Old 06-08-2009, 10:38 PM
 
33 posts, read 70,493 times
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Quote:
Bugnubs: There are too many means to measure intelligence to draw a reasonable conclusion.
What about the guys who invented the wheel and fire?? What nationality do you suppose they were??

I think the thread poses a childish question.
I agree with this post. Well said.

Enough about China. Its not that people are "western centric" its that they are self centric. Most of the people if not all responders are responding from the western world. Gutenberg is credited with the printing press because someone wrote his name down. The credit isn't important. What is important historically is that the printing press came into use in Europe and the result.
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Old 06-08-2009, 11:07 PM
 
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What do you mean the credit isnt important? Thats like saying indians invented the internet when the US did. Chinese invented moveable type printing not gutenburg.
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Old 06-09-2009, 03:14 AM
 
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Default Orang Yahudi

Quote:
Originally Posted by ako View Post
Just out of curiosity, what nationality of people do you think are the smartest?
The Jews.
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