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Are there towns that are like Buffalo that are more affordable? We like the town, school system, activities for children, climate, and especially love the Big Horn views. I'm reading that Sheridan and Johnson Counties are more expensive. We really love the Big Horns and want an area with snow (not 5 ft coming in one day but a decent winter where it stays around long enough for sledding, snowshoeing, etc). We'd like to be within decent range of school bus but not right in town. My husband is currently a SAH dad but is now going back to work as a welder so being within commuting distance (around 1 hr each way) would be important also.
Small acreage (40-75 acres) with older farmhouse would be ideal.
We hope to start a small alpaca ranch - haven't mentioned it before in posts because people around us think the idea is bizarre. I'll have to have land that can support their grazing or I'll need to buy hay grass along with supplements. I'm open to either and understand that grazing land would be more expensive. I tend to see things that are in subdivisions or others with so much acreage I'd probably want to lease some of it out (would need to research demand for leased land and prices for leasing).
I'm thinking that I could go to $550k-$600k if there was a house on the property or $250k without a house. I'm still trying to look into costs for building modular homes, stick-built homes, etc out there so I'm not exactly sure what I can afford without a house. Prices seem very different from WI and the well prices are causing me to go on the low side to make sure I don't overshoot what is doable.
So, are there towns anyone thinks have the same feel and views as Buffalo? We've been out 3 weeks so far this year and will probably be out 2 more at the end of the year. We'd like to have my husband move as soon as our house is sold and then our daughter and I would come out after the school year ends next June.
I would highly recommed you start getting in touch with realitors in this area. 75 acres is not going to be something you see in the paper unless it's advertised by a realitor. Your talking more then the average realistate deal.
You mentioned an hour commute. That is stretching it in this country. haha If your that far out in the summer, it could triple the time in the winter.
But, Buffalo, Story, Banner, Big Horn, Ranchester, Dayton, Clairmont are all well within the distance you want and they are all small towns. Plus you can see the Big Horns from all of them. Furthest out for a day in the big horns would be Clairmont. But you'd still be within 45 minutes of the mountains.
But for a welder, you can get employment in both Sheridan and Buffalow and Ranchester. Limited in Dayton, Big Horn, Banner and Story.
IMO, this was one of those "get rich in the specialty animal products biz" promotions (like ostrich, emu, and similar exotics ... ) that has kinda' fizzled out. $20,000 breeding pairs are now $1,000 or so ... the only people who made money on this pyramid were the first folks in the game.
the only regional market for the fiber and spun/dyed fiber is at the annual Estes Park Wool Market. there are a few other limited "alpaca" shows in the region, but they tend to attract other alpaca owners and very few others seeking goods or livestock.
the marketplace on alpacas has really crashed around here. while there are still a few breeders holding out for relatively bigger bucks for them, they've come down in price/value so much that we were given 6 of them (nice geldings, OK fiber) by a breeder ... just to take them away. For us, they were such indifferent animals compared to our Llamas that we placed all of them with friends who think they're "cute". At least the Llamas are guardians to our goats ....
my wife is a handspinner, and we do our own processing from shearing through dyed skeins. she's made more money off the alpaca fiber by trading it for other fiber goods than actually selling the fiber, or she blends it with mohair for a unique "feel" which some knitters like from time to time.
Hmmm... I'm a little confused now. The female Suris I'm looking at are still going for $15-30k. I've priced Colorado, Wyoming and Wisconsin alpacas and they were pretty much the same (which is why I'd be buying 2 in the bargain basement category to start). It seems I could get the huacaya much cheaper. The alpaca plan is still in research. I find them calming, like I do my dogs. I like being around animals. I'd have cows or cattle but that would be getting in over my head. Just because I can read a book about cattle doesn't mean I know how to take proper care of them. Hopefully I recognize my limitations. Having an animal's very existence depend on you is a huge responsibility and I wouldn't be much of a person were I to jump in and cause harm to an animal just because I'm an idiot rancher wannabe.
I'd like to change my career to something less stressful in about 5 yrs (or less) but I don't plan to make enough money on the alpacas for that to be it. I'm a senior software engineer now and I'm not really good at anything else - at least not that I know of. I'd like to do something more physical that doesn't have me getting called all hours of the night and weekends. Hopefully I'll make enough from breeding and fiber to cover their basic expenses. Alpacas are supposed to be one of the easier types of livestock to own in terms of care. I have appointments to visit several ranches around here. I've done the reading, now I need some hands-on experience.
Right now we live in a rural area with many 'equestrian estates'. We were here before the estates were. I wouldn't even be able to afford anything in my area if I was looking now. Too many doctors and bankers moved into the area (not that there's anything wrong with doctors and bankers). They priced a lot of the smaller farmers right off their land. That's kind of why I'd like a nice sized parcel. Just so I don't get smothered by development again. The McMansions, all the outdoor lighting, and all the cement really took the beauty and charm out of the area. Can hardly see the stars or the lightning bugs anymore. I guess that's happening everywhere.
Hmmm... I'm a little confused now. The female Suris I'm looking at are still going for $15-30k. I've priced Colorado, Wyoming and Wisconsin alpacas and they were pretty much the same (which is why I'd be buying 2 in the bargain basement category to start). It seems I could get the huacaya much cheaper. The alpaca plan is still in research. I find them calming, like I do my dogs. I like being around animals. I'd have cows or cattle but that would be getting in over my head. Just because I can read a book about cattle doesn't mean I know how to take proper care of them. Hopefully I recognize my limitations. Having an animal's very existence depend on you is a huge responsibility and I wouldn't be much of a person were I to jump in and cause harm to an animal just because I'm an idiot rancher wannabe.
I'd like to change my career to something less stressful in about 5 yrs (or less) but I don't plan to make enough money on the alpacas for that to be it. I'm a senior software engineer now and I'm not really good at anything else - at least not that I know of. I'd like to do something more physical that doesn't have me getting called all hours of the night and weekends. Hopefully I'll make enough from breeding and fiber to cover their basic expenses. Alpacas are supposed to be one of the easier types of livestock to own in terms of care. I have appointments to visit several ranches around here. I've done the reading, now I need some hands-on experience.
Right now we live in a rural area with many 'equestrian estates'. We were here before the estates were. I wouldn't even be able to afford anything in my area if I was looking now. Too many doctors and bankers moved into the area (not that there's anything wrong with doctors and bankers). They priced a lot of the smaller farmers right off their land. That's kind of why I'd like a nice sized parcel. Just so I don't get smothered by development again. The McMansions, all the outdoor lighting, and all the cement really took the beauty and charm out of the area. Can hardly see the stars or the lightning bugs anymore. I guess that's happening everywhere.
Dea
There is a friend of mine in Idaho (Post Falls) that raises Alpacas. She still works a regular job, but her husband does it full time. Her username on this site is "pacalady" You might try emailing her about them. They are just super great people.
Here is their website SERANO ALPACAS (hope that's ok moderators )
Dea13 ... OK, buy Alpacas if you like them ... just be aware that they are not friendly creatures despite their "cuddly looks".
And, if you're trying to make money off of them, I'd be doing a lot more research into the markets and the products that you're seeking to make money from.
It's kinda' like some other animals I mentioned above, which formerly were big dollar/get rich quick promotions :
Llamas? we see them all the time at the sale barn bringing $35-$100 (if they even sell). With the exception of one my wife bought there, we've gotten all of ours as rescue animals. Some were given to us (about 30 total), some we paid a nominal "fee" to help fund the professional Llama rescue folks. We've kept the best (guardian and personality traits) for ourselves and placed out the rest (we gave them away ...). Some were even trained to "pack" and lead very well; Llamas are not by nature very socialable animals, although we do have a couple that are friendlier than most; again, the "cuddly" or "cute" looks belie their nature and you'll be at risk if you try to be very close and friendly with most of them.
Emu? where meat and the oil and the feathers and the leather were gonna' be such big deal markets? a total fizzle these days ... most folks got out of these a while back. The meat was awful, the leather was very fragile and smelled ... the oil is about the only viable product and that market is well produced in other countries.
Ostrich? meat and eggs ... they're a particularly nasty critter to keep, much like the Emu's. So many people lost their shorts in this market that they turned the birds loose on public lands down in Texas ... where the birds run wild, are breeding like crazy, and are now a public nuisance.
I'd be very careful to check out exactly what the marketplace is for your Alpaca products, including your breeding program sales. Check out the fiber sales in the wool markets in the US ... the big ones are Estes Park, one back East, and one in Oregon. When Alpacas sank so low in value that folks were giving them to us because they couldn't justify their keep for the fiber they produced, I knew that the marketplace has crashed pretty badly.
Further proof to me that it's sunk pretty low is that we have a friend ... a newbie last year to Wyoming and livestock & animal husbandry ... who bought some of our breeding stock of Angora goats so she could get into the fiber arts. She now has 8 Alpaca's and 5 Llamas, along with 10 fiber goats. Knowing her very limited budget for this (after having bought a 40 acre parcel across from the Veedauwoo park and built a house and barn), I know she couldn't possibly have spent much over $150-250 per animal.
The only other way I know to maximize the return on cleaned fiber or skeins of yarn (preferably dyed) is to hook up with a local crafts marketplace with spinners and weavers, or to sell your fiber product directly on ebay or similar
'net salesrooms. You won't be selling to the manufacturers, and the amount of fiber you will raise (unless you get into a really big herd) won't justify a trip to the wool warehouses in Texas to sell your product wholesale. In general, they aren't cash buyers, anyway ... they grade and weigh in your bags of fiber and send you a check when they've sold it (which can take 1-2 years in some markets). So you might want to look up the wool warehouses in the area around Ozona TX and call them to find out what they're paying for Alpaca (if they're even buying), where they see the marketplace as heading, etc.
You might also check with your local/regional fiber arts/spinning/wool shop and see how they're handling small producers of Alpaca fiber. Sales off their bulletin board? purchases for their spinning/weaving classes? buy for resale in the store? consignment?
Oh, and if you're selling fiber, you need to consider the cost/time/labor of how you're harvesting and processing it. You can pay a professional shearer $x per head to shear, or learn to do it yourself ... which means buying the equipment; a bare minimum would be an Oster Shearmaster equipped with the correct comb and cutter ... you'll need several of each to keep them sharp (changing out cutters as they get dull), high qual scissors, etc.
Then, how will you clean the fiber? Remove second cuts? Card it? Roll it into little batts? Or, will you send it out to one of the professionals who does all that service ... with shipping costs both ways and the fees per pound of cleaning and preparing your fiber? Most of them use very harsh chemical vats to clean the fiber, which may be objectionable to more sophisticated handspinners ....
I'm not trying to make this a "too daunting" proposition for you. I'm just trying to share with you the real costs of getting into the fiber arts production. In our case, we've bought all of the equipment, including a professional shearing machine (1/3 horsepower, cable driven handpieces: $2,000), a large picker, rotary carder, two spinning wheels (ovr $800 apiece) ... and learned how to do all of the work ourselves to care for, keep healthy (we do our own "vetting"), breeding, corrals, pastures, hay production, shear, all so we can have a dyed/spun fiber product for sale and annual lamb/kid/cria (sometimes, as it's not worth breeding Llamas) production to sell.
Overall, we operate at much more than a "hobby farm" level ... and, after 15 years .... have yet to turn a profit from my wife's fiber arts habit, although she has paid a lot of the herd improvement costs and expansion of the herds. The only way we've turned our livestock into profit is by going into Boer (meat) goats or lamb (Tunis, Southdowns) production with ready buyers for the meat.
Another concern here ... you mentioned not wanting to be "called all hours of the night and weekends" for work. Livestock production, especially high dollar specialty animals ... is an absolute 24/7/365 job. When a critter needs attention, it needs it NOW. When it's colic'd, or injured, or sick, or at risk of some airborne or waterborne contagion making the rounds ... you'll be up with it. Even if your intention is to call out the Vet everytime there's a problem (which gets very expensive real fast), you'll still be the one spending most of the time caring for the animal. That might just be on a weekend, or at 2AM anynight, or a holiday weekend you've scheduled other things to do. So, if you think you're going to be able to schedule your livestock ranch responsibilities around your personal schedule, I'd suggest you find something else to do with your time before you risk making very expensive mistakes.
You might want to spend a couple of weeks with your favorite livestock producers and see what real livestock production responsibilities are all about ... the livestock will be their 100% absolute priority, I can assure you.
The last place I'd be looking for sound advice about making money in the Alpaca business would be consulting with folks trying to sell $15,000-30,000 breeders .... who can make it sound like nothing but money in the bank just waiting for you to reach over and pick it up. If you think so, I've got for sale some of the cutest, most lovable, sparkling personality Angora billies, does, and bucks I'd like to show you and they cost a heck of a lot less than Alpacas.
you-cant-eat-scenery, I'll check out that website.
Sunsprit, I find your posts very challenging (in a good way). I do understand that livestock is a 24/7 job. Taking care of children or animals in the middle of the night is much different than looking at a computer screen trying to resolve issues that you know could wait until morning but somebody's office politics gameplan involves creating drama. The only things I know for sure are that I can't do my job until retirement age - it would kill me long before that, and we would move to Buffalo today if we could sell our house and find the right property. Maybe after visiting some alpaca breeders I won't think they're a good fit for me but hopefully I'll keep learning about different animals and I'll eventually find one that works for me.
jgussler, thanks for the town names. I'll include them in my property searches.
Are there any other towns that remind people of Buffalo?
Well, other then the towns I mentioned, the next town is 99 miles down the road from Buffalo going East and that would be Gillette. Nothing like the small town of Buffalo. Going South, you'll come to Kaycee. It's about 46 miles from Buffalo. Going North out of Sheridan, the first and second towns you come to are both on the reservation in Montana. The first town that's not on the res is Hardin. I wouldn't live there on a bet.
I mentioned Story, but I'd like to add that it's a little more expensive then Buffalo. Quiet and serene little town so they get pretty stiff prices for everything.
I've been trying to think of anybody around that's busting up property. Around town they bust it up in 10 acres or less. It's hard to find anything larger then that. And once you get past that, most of the ranches are 60,000-150,000+ acres and they don't normally bust them up. haha
Give ABC reality a shot and talk to Carolyn. They've got a web site, just google it. They might know of some spots around the two counties. Sheridan county with Sheridan and Johnson County with Buffalo.
This is definatly an interesting thread about livestock, and the affordability, and profitabilty of raising animals! Not to mention a major move in everyone's life!
I would appreciate offering these thoughts to the thread for discussion regarding livestock, as I am an alpaca breeder, and have been an accountant for over 30 years. I also know that for a 'business' (either retail or wholesale, manufacturing or technology) takes a minimum of 3-5 years as the SBA will tell you not to mention a good business plan, a budget, and most importantly the focus of the owners to stick with the plan to meet with success!
I cannot address the business climate for buffalo, emus or goats. I can address the business climate for alpaca, both suri and huacaya breeds. And I was brought up on a working cattle ranch in North Idaho in the 60's where we had 800 breeding cows, with calf, 16 bulls, numerous horses; we put up 48,000 bales of hay each summer ....by HAND!!
Within our current alpaca community there are breeders switching from huacaya to suri, however the suri fiber is more difficult and more expnesive to process into a finished product. Which is a part of the reason some breeders are 'switching'.
On our alpaca farm we have 18 huacaya alpaca which includes 15 of them shorn this season (the remaing three were cria at the time, so this discussion will be about 15 adults). In our experience, we consider the cost of shearing (never has been more than $40 per head, including set-up, and 'show fleece' additional cost for some) as part of our 'herd health' budget (in other words, we will shear the alpaca no matter what the fleece quality, or whether usable or not, and thus consider that cost like we would feed, or vet care.
I took 40 lbs of prime fleece to a local mill for processing into yarn last season, which with waste, cost me $2 per ounce. My net yarn was 35# of yarn for sale!
My least desirable yarn for knitting or crocheting is $5.00 per ounce because it is from older, courser fibered animials, and is to be used for scarves, socks, mittens, vests, hats or other outer wear, which I tell any customer looking at the yarn . Assuming 35# of yarn at $5.00 per ounce (my least expensive) is worth $2800 and has cost me $1120, that is a 40% gross profit and does not include the fact that baby-fleece spun into yarn sells for $7-8.00 per ounce, with the same $2.00 per ounce processing! I sell out of yarn by December every year!
I also sell what we call 'second grade' fiber (coarser) which is used for felting and for new spinners that just want to 'try alpaca'. It sells for a couple dollars a bag ...... color is the component here. Since we have a variety of colors from black to brown to beige to white, (their are 22 natural colors of alpaca, but we don't have them all ....yet) and in smaller quanities, a 'new spinner' can experiment at a reasonable price.
And the least desirable fiber (short and coarse) is made into socks, gloves or rugs (depending on the quality) by professional mills. I still make the margins with those products, but not as much as with the yarn from my prime fiber spun at local mills.
The key, I think, is marketing, and promotion. Yeah, you can get your fiber made into 'something', but if you aren't promoting alpaca products, you probably aren't going to get any sales! And you will wind up with a room or garage full of fiber or alpaca fiber product just sitting there doing nothing!
Now let's talk about the individual animal: Not every cria is going to be show quality, or breeding quality. These animals are sold as 'fiber' or 'pets' depending on the animal and fiber quality (which includes the color of the animal). Last year I sold two 'pet/fiber' boys at the age of about 8 - 11months .... they were black/ and bay-black, went to great lovings homes, and sold them for $500 each. OK, I didn't get the 'baby fleece' but that is okay ..... I have more cria on the ground! And 5 more coming in 2008. That equates to about 3 lbs each of baby, times 8 (3 this season that won't be shorn until next year, plus the 5 more due 2008, so 24 lbs of baby fleece, x $2 per ounce to process, time $8.00 per ounce sold ...equates to??????
THEN! We have 3 males for sale; One is a national ribbon winner with 6 of the most outstanding cria on the ground; we also have a son out of the 2007 AOBA Futurity Sale Top Selling male who sold for $150k....... Our son is NOT going to sell for anything CLOSE to the 150k ....we are a small farm with less expectation, but we will still make a good profit when we sell him.
SO, for anyone wanting to get into livestock, my suggestion is to do a LOT of reasearch BEFORE you jump in; then when you do, get into it with GUSTO!
Love what you do, and DO what you love. For us, we wish we'd have discovered alpacas 10 years sooner than we did!
People tell me all the time "This is your Passion" .... and YES it is!
PacaLady
As for Llamas: In our area, llamas are needing to be 'resuced' every day. They are free for the taking! We alpaca breeders use them as guard animals within our herds. The demise of the llama industry is due to the fact that there was no quantifiable registration involved, and so unscrupulous breeders were showing animals that weren't 'really' the ones with the lineage credintials being shown, or needed to sustain the industry. Not to mention the fact that a llama has a totally DIFFERENT, and more aggressive personality than the alpaca!
Alpacas are NOT the same as a llama, although they are first cousins! Their size difference alone is worth understanding! THe llama is 48" (average") at the withers and can be used for packing or carting ....the alpaca is raised strictly for the qualities of its fiber which is compared to cashmere!
With alpaca we are reauired to:
1: have DNA verification of lineage PRIOR to registration of an animal with ARI
2: any animal entered into an AOBA sanctioned show must be micro chipped with veterinary verification of identify prior to and during the entry into a show (even though the micro chip might have been implanted years prior to the show).
3. must have a health certificate prior to leaving the farm, and again is checked by an on-site vet at a show. If the animal is stressed or doesn't have the required veterinary certificates, or health checks, it isn't allowed off the trailer it came in on!
Our rules for being within a "Show Quality" industry are strict, and they are right.... and my belief is that these very restrictions are what make our alpaca industry so strong.
I would suggest that anyone researching the alpaca industry also look at the auction sales at the AOBA National Show held in Lousiville KY (several years postings are listed on each of these websites), the Kentucky Classic, the East Meets West Show, Breeder's Choice Auction etc. The bargains to be found, however are going to be with smaller farms without the overhead of auction pricing, and advertising!
Sorry everyone .... I only meant to give my 2-cents worth, and it looks like about 14 more!
Paca Lacy
pacalady ... you've given us the income side of your fiber production, but there's a gap here on the cost side. Taking your gross $2,800 minus your "cost of product" at $1,120 yields a net income here of $1,680.
But you've left out your capital investment side of the equation, which I find a rather glaring omission with your accounting background.
What did your Alpacas cost for acquisition? How much infrastructure costs do you have to accomodate these animals? What are your typical annual per animal vet/well being costs & expenses?
And what's your lost opportunity cost of all that investment? If you've been buying $15,000 - $150,000 livestock, what could you have earned at a reasonable investment rate today on that capital investment?
How many hours of your labor time went into the producing that $1,680 worth of fiber income? How much traveling expense did you incurr to promote your herd and fiber?
All I'm trying to point up here is that the rosy picture you've presented of a tidy $1,680 fiber income may have been very costly to produce.
Considering all the Blue and Purple ribbons we have from shows for our livestock and fiber production (including the value added aspect of the spun and dyed yarn .... which we, too, sell out of every year, sometimes right at the wool market) .... and the premium money from the fairs, too .... we've spent one heck of a lot more money for our fiber ranching habit than it's ever returned for us. And we're into $500-1,500 animals per head, not $15,000 and up up up .........
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Simply because I like them
). They priced a lot of the smaller farmers right off their land. That's kind of why I'd like a nice sized parcel. Just so I don't get smothered by development again. The McMansions, all the outdoor lighting, and all the cement really took the beauty and charm out of the area. Can hardly see the stars or the lightning bugs anymore. I guess that's happening everywhere.
)
