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Old 12-02-2012, 09:23 AM
 
Location: Sutherlin, Oregon
448 posts, read 1,129,154 times
Reputation: 226

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Folks who use studded tires out here (sorry for waning on the PNW) leave the damn things on and tear up the roads, and thier expense in those tires; simply to catch a relatively rare snow event in the Cascades?

So they drive on what amounts to bare pavement virtually all "winter" with those tires on.......absurd. As indicator, alot of cars I see have no ski racks on them either. This is just not snow country out here.

A guy at my work said he was travelling to AZ for Thanksgiving........so he puts the snow tires on the Volvo? Seriously guy! Man-up and throw chains as needed. Barely vested @ work, took time off work to have them tires mounted too.

Sorry guys , thought you'd find amusing.......I found it absurd to travel 3000 miles 'round, on snappin' studded tires. So, why now pay to remove them now when you get back, wear em' all winter on bare pavement......it's your "right". Just how typical is this kinda' story do ya' think. Live here 20+ years and find out.

Yes Sunday, but preparing the situation here for Costa Rica trip.

Take it easy guys!
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Old 12-02-2012, 01:06 PM
 
322 posts, read 537,296 times
Reputation: 460
sunsprit - I don't see where we disagree at all. I acknowledged that studs address only slick surfaces and not deep snow, and I'll add, even if it's only drifts. I also never suggested that you can't get from here to there on a slippery road without studs.

What I did say is that if slippery is the only concern then studs provide a huge increase in traction over any tire without them - to the point where front 2WD with is better than 4WD without.
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Old 12-02-2012, 05:55 PM
 
26 posts, read 40,037 times
Reputation: 35
OK, now that I figured out that Subie OBW means Subaru Outback, some questions. First what does the "W" stand for? Went to the Subaru website and started building an Outback. In Wyoming, what works better, manual or automatic transmission? I am good on both. And would you go to a light color car (reflects sun) or dark color car (absorbs sun)?
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Old 12-03-2012, 08:53 AM
 
1,872 posts, read 3,955,967 times
Reputation: 945
Speaking of Subarus, my sister & her DH who live in NW Montana have one. They live out of town, so have some pavement, some gravel and some dirt road to get to their house, although it isn't very far from town. Their Subie works great with good all-terrain tires. Regardless of whether the roads are dry, wet, slick, snowpacked, drifted, they never have any problems getting where they are going. The area where they live is even more "mountainous" than it is in most of Wyoming, so I can only assume that it would be pretty much the same here. As for us, we have never used snow tires. Living in Wyoming my whole life (except for a couple of years in Montana) I would hate to add up the number of miles I have driven. LOTS! I have to say that other than getting stuck in very deep snow in the Big Horns while hunting a couple of times I have never had any problems with driving. During those hunting excursions we chained up and sometimes that doesn't even help when the snow is so deep. However, for everyday use, it is my opinion that an all-season tire is sufficient. I drive 30 miles to work and my DH used to drive almost 100 one way to work as well as all over the state for his job, and both our personal vehicles and his work trucks only had all-season tires. I see no reason to take the time and money to change tires for the winter.
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Old 12-03-2012, 10:09 AM
 
11,508 posts, read 49,963,665 times
Reputation: 16011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wm Jas View Post
sunsprit - I don't see where we disagree at all. I acknowledged that studs address only slick surfaces and not deep snow, and I'll add, even if it's only drifts. I also never suggested that you can't get from here to there on a slippery road without studs.

What I did say is that if slippery is the only concern then studs provide a huge increase in traction over any tire without them - to the point where front 2WD with is better than 4WD without.
Sorry, but you misread my comments re the folks driving in slick conditions when snowdrifts have been beaten down into a refreezing mass of ice ...

But more significantly, as far back as 2002 the State of Washington commissioned a study of the benefits and drawbacks of studded vs studless winter tire technology and determined ... keep in mind, this was back a decade ago ... that the benefits of a new studded tire were minimal, if any. Especially in view of the adverse performance in all but an exceptionally narrow range of driving situations, the studded tires were a net danger to the drivers. The report supported the banning of non-seasonal use of studded tires in WA state, which has been done there and in many others in the snow/ice belt areas of the country.

But more recently, studless winter tires are outperforming studded tires in the places where studs may have previously held a slight advantage ... due to recent advances in tire compounds and design.

I quote Tire Rack:

"The Tire Rack's team of testers review the performance of winter / snow tires on ice, comparing the control of studded tires to a new generation of studless. The results show that studless tires proved they have what it takes in the areas of acceleration, control, traction and cornering, surpassing that of studded tires." Emphasis, mine.

You can google either report ... and read for yourself how studded tires don't peform today in comparison to studless winter tires. The advantages of studded tires over conventional winter snow tires of decades ago is a time long past. The detrimental aspects of the studded tires in terms of vehicle safety and roadway wear are now long documented and proven.

Further, several car owner clubs have done their own testing of studless/winter tires vs studded tires, including the BMW Roundel and The MBCCofA ... and have reached the same recommendations for studless winter tires vs studded tires. They advocate not using studded tires on these cars because the performance required in slick conditions near freezing temperatures is accomplished with studless winter tires.

At that, ever since I changed over to Audi and Subie AWD vehicles here in Wyoming ... driving extensively through the Rocky Mountain region for business travel all year round ... I've never been stuck, gone off-road, or had difficulty getting around with All-Season tires. I've accessed some slick roads with a lot of ice on them, including the streets in East Vail where I have a house. I've been up there when the VPD had closed Main Gore road to traffic due to the icy slick conditions, and asked the policeman at the barricade if I could try getting up to my house up the steep hill ... and he responded that I could try, but if I got stuck or needed to be towed, he'd give me a ticket for going past the barricade. That's happened several times, and each time, I've made it to my house without incident. On All-Season tires with my AWD car, and that was from a standing start on the incline of the hill where the barricade is located (they leave access for the TOV bus stop route which is up from the level roadway a short distance). Interesting to note, too, that the TOV PD and the bus system don't use Studded tires, either, they use All-Season tires on their SUV's ... and they're first responders who must get through.
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Old 12-03-2012, 10:32 AM
 
Location: Sheridan County, Wyoming
692 posts, read 1,633,624 times
Reputation: 624
I drive 68 miles on way to work every day. Except for 2 times when the road was closed, I have made it to work every day. I drive a 2011 Toyota Tacoma dual cab 4WD with Michelin LTS M/S2 and have yet to have any problems. I also drive appropriately to the conditions. WYDOT does a good job of keeping the highway cleaned.
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Old 12-03-2012, 10:40 AM
 
322 posts, read 537,296 times
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sunsprit - I'm certainly not going to question your experience and satisfaction with the new breed of snow tires but I do question the fact that when driving on ice there is any traction advantage with studless over studs. That is simply counter-intuitive and against my experience.

I checked out your references. The Washington study acknowledged the superior traction of studs on ice and Tire Rack is trying to sell studless snow tires. And Washington, like Maine, only allows studs in season.

I suspect that any bias against studs may be that in areas of mild winters such as Wyoming [unless you are regularly driving in the mountains] the cost may be very difficult to justify in lieu of the few days where they would be beneficial and that the new technology provides an alternative that is almost as good when driving on some slippery surfaces. I can easily buy that argument.

But studless superior to studs on ice? I can’t buy that. Have you ever seen car or motorcycle racing on ice? Without studs those sports wouldn't exist.
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Old 12-03-2012, 11:13 AM
 
11,508 posts, read 49,963,665 times
Reputation: 16011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wm Jas View Post
sunsprit - I'm certainly not going to question your experience and satisfaction with the new breed of snow tires but I do question the fact that when driving on ice there is any traction advantage with studless over studs. That is simply counter-intuitive and against my experience.

I checked out your references. The Washington study acknowledged the superior traction of studs on ice and Tire Rack is trying to sell studless snow tires. And Washington, like Maine, only allows studs in season.

I suspect that any bias against studs may be that in areas of mild winters such as Wyoming [unless you are regularly driving in the mountains] the cost may be very difficult to justify in lieu of the few days where they would be beneficial and that the new technology provides an alternative that is almost as good when driving on some slippery surfaces. I can easily buy that argument.

But studless superior to studs on ice? I can’t buy that. Have you ever seen car or motorcycle racing on ice? Without studs those sports wouldn't exist.
You can bring up all of your disbelief based upon experiences from years gone by when the hydrophyllic tire compounds and newer tire designs weren't in the marketplace.

But such is not the case in today's marketplace, and your reference to studded tires in a singularly unique specialty use of studs ... ice racing ... isn't applicable to the street driving that the OP is seeking to do in their travels.

Disclaiming that Tire Rack's sole motivation is to sell tires is a false rejection of their actual tire testing. FWIW, they are happy to sell studded tires, too, and did so for many years even to the extent of selling mounted studded tire/wheel combinations. Similarly, the 2002 study in WA acknowledged that there was only a "slight" improvement in a very unique, small set of situations where the studded tires might have an advantage; significant was the detrimental effects of the studded tires on dry or wet situations for braking/handling. In their assessment, the few opportunities for the studded tire to show any advantage were far outweighed by their disadvantages in real world driving scenarios and the damage to the road surfaces. What greatly affects that determination is that studless tires have improved so greatly in the last decade.

I do regularly drive in the mountains throughout the Rocky Mountain region, frequently disclosed on this forum about my rep business and the need for travel throughout the region, and that's on top of having done a Denver-mountain area commute for decades to my homes or friend's places in the Rocky Mountains. High altitude cold temps, severe winds, and enough moisture to create extensive areas of black ice prevail throughout the region, even when there's minimal snowfall accumulation. As well, the winds drift the snow back across the plowed and clear roadways for days after a frontal passage, and promote repeated formation of black ice, especially in spots that are shaded through the low sun angle days.

Lastly, how you can describe Wyoming as having "mild winters" is laughable. I've not lived through MN and WI winters, but my wife grew up there and describes the winter here as much more severe at 6,000' elevation at our home. As well, we have neighbors from those areas who say that it was easier "back home" and can't wait to sell their houses there ... and I've visited with a sizable number of people who come from that area of the country who encountered an average Wyoming winter here in SE Wyoming and sold out, left WY, because it was so much more severe than what they were acclimated to. Please note that we have icy slick conditions that frequently combine with strong wind gusts that blow vehicles off the road. It's not uncommon to see quite a few needing to be towed back onto the roadway after a storm; indeed, I drove I-25 from Casper to Cheyenne this last winter after a spring storm and counted over 25 semi's off the road and lost track of how many cars were off the road.

PS: I rode a '66 Ducati 250 scrambler back in the 1960's at the Georgetown ice races. I do know a little bit about the sport, having built up a number of bikes for competitors there through the years. It doesn't compare to road driving. There were still guys driving Cadillac RWD cars and they were competitive; but that's not an anology that is applicable to driving on the road with AWD cars today. Or are you going to assert that a RWD Caddy is superior to an AWD current production car today because it was so good on the ice track way back when?

If I have to choose between your analysis of tires today and those of numerous car owner clubs, manufacturer's testing, and funded studies ... it's not a choice. To assert that a FWD vehicle with studded tires is superior to an AWD without studs in normal winter driving or icy inclement driving conditions with studless winter tires has long been disproven. On a personal level, I've driven past way too many vehicles (4x4's and FWD's) off the road with my Audi's and Subies for too many years to want to go back to anything less ... and I've never had anything but All-Season tires on these cars. Didn't even need studless winter tires, and have never used the cable chains I've bought years ago for my RWD MB's and BMW's that I drove for decades around here.

Last edited by sunsprit; 12-03-2012 at 11:29 AM..
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Old 12-03-2012, 12:25 PM
 
Location: Cabin Creek
3,414 posts, read 5,526,664 times
Reputation: 2593
well for over 35 years I have had a 3/4 ton GMC 4x4 , from regular cab to 2 extended cabs to crew cab and duramax
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Old 12-03-2012, 12:27 PM
 
322 posts, read 537,296 times
Reputation: 460
sunsprit - I still can't see where our opinions are that far apart in the big picture, except for my opinion that Wyoming winters are mild compared to Maine, which is no contest except for in the mountains, unless you are saying that while driving on ice that the traction of the best modern technology snow tire is actually decreased by adding studs to them. Is that your claim? If so then I will respectively disagree and move on.

That Tire Rack video proved nothing. They were driving 3 mph on a hockey rink. In Maine I grew up in the country where the rural roads were snow & ice covered from Thanksgiving thru April. And my driveway for the last 5 years I was there was 3/8 of a mile up an 8-10% grade.

I'm very happy that you are satisfied with your choice. It apparently works very well for you. I don't drive on studded tires here in Wyoming either - basically because the winters are so [comparatively] mild and I live in town and can easily avoid harsh driving conditions, which I do on those rare occasions when the roads are slick.
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