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Old 03-08-2014, 04:28 PM
 
Location: Where the mountains touch the sky
5,692 posts, read 6,507,896 times
Reputation: 10558

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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunsprit View Post
MT, you observed:

"Have to tell you that the assets of a company legally registered in the state of jurisdiction of the company may operate in other states because those states have to recognize that the vehicle is operating under the laws of the state that the company has existence in and is being used as an asset of the company by an authorized person in pursuance of that business."

Sorry, but you don't know the vehicle licensing laws of WY. They are very specific that a vehicle operated here for more than a minimum amount of time must obtain a WY registration/license ... no matter where the corp/company has their legal base of operations/corp on file. It could be in MT, NV, or any other state ... but operating vehicles in WY has them fall under the state statutes of WY for licensing. You'll see this to be more prevalent in commercial vehicles operating under pro-rata license plates, such as you see for the semi's heading over the highways.

Hence folk like me and EH, in compliance with the statutes, licensed vehicles in multiple states at the same time.
It actually doesn't matter to me, I don't do more than pass through Wyoming on my way somewhere else, So I don't really care what the licensing laws in Wyoming are, I was just attempting to let you know why some folks have out of state plates.
You wish to punish someone for not wanting to pay more taxes in Wyoming, that is your prerogative, as for me, I avoid spending any money I don't absolutely have to in states with sales taxes.
Apparently I am not alone as there are a lot of people that shop online to avoid the taxes as well. Not everyone sees high taxes as beneficial.

You also apparently don't know what the BID preference in WY is for WY contractors on public works projects. It is a 5% premium available ONLY to WY based contractors; ie, your BID is considered to be 5% less than your BID. For example, if two contractors come in at the same price point, the WY contractor has the low BID by 5% less. Incrementally, this 5% preference can be the difference between getting an award or not. When you're dealing in public works projects, 5% can be a big edge. I've seen a lot of projects through the years where the percentage spread between the group of competitive bidders wasn't more than 2-3%.
Again, doesn't effect me, don't care, I'm not a contractor and won't be submitting any public works bids in Wyoming.

All I know is that any given day or weekend you can go to any of the border towns in Montana and see parking lots filled with license plates from Canada, Wyoming, the Dakotas, Idaho and Washington owned by people coming here to shop because they don't have to pay extra in sales tax.

When the taxes are seen as punitive, people will expend the energy to avoid those taxes and states like Montana and Oregon reap the benefits of having people go there to spend their money because it goes further and they feel they get a better price.

Works in Favor of Montana, all that additional revenue supports our towns and creates jobs.

So go ahead and raise your sales tax however high you want, all it does is send more money our way

I see people coming here to buy cars and other big ticket items too because they don't have to pay the additional tax.
Might be something to consider....

Not everyone likes to give the government any more than they absolutely have to
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Old 03-08-2014, 05:06 PM
 
11,284 posts, read 46,201,163 times
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LOL ...

I'll trade Wyoming's lower tax overall structure than Montana's, which includes an income tax.

The only reason that the WY border town folk come to MT to avoid the sales tax is because they get to avoid the personal income tax and perhaps engage in WY tax fraud on their major purchases.

Again, this is all a scheme of dodging legitimately owed taxes in WY, and perhaps in other states bordering MT.

WA & OR have a similar relationship between a sales tax and non-sales tax collection.

FWIW, a comparison of cost of WY vs MT living and how the overall tax rates affect one's income has been long discussed on C-D in years past. The consensus of the folk in that discussion was the WY was the overall less expensive place to live, and that a significant portion of that advantage was not having a state income tax and lower property taxes. Sorta' all came out in the wash in WY's favor even when folk factored in having to pay sales tax here.

Has me wondering how many folk reside in WY yet work in MT, just so they can play the tax avoidance game both ways on that ... commute from Sheridan area as a primary residence, but keep a low-rent apartment in Billings for work during the week? I know of folk in the Hulett area that do this with projects in the MT area not too far away, too.

Kinda' really getting a chuckle out of your posturing about MT being so much better than WY when it comes to taxation and it's value to society ... because the reality is that you're paying a premium in taxes in MT over what you'd be spending in WY. MT just collects their higher rates by taxing other items than WY does. You still lose any advantage you might have gained by no sales tax.


Where it really comes into play for folk like me that haven't bought a new motor vehicle since 1972 ... is the sales taxes I've paid in WY for my pre-owned motor vehicle purchases are a drop in the bucket compared to what I'd have paid in MT income tax.

Last edited by sunsprit; 03-08-2014 at 05:25 PM..
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Old 03-08-2014, 06:41 PM
 
Location: Where the mountains touch the sky
5,692 posts, read 6,507,896 times
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Again, your choice. I prefer the advantages of living in Montana. My 4 percent income tax is still less than the average 6 percent sales tax in Wyoming.

Yeah property prices are higher in Montana, so the taxes are significant, but at the end of the day, I still prefer living in Montana.

I don't care what taxes other people pay, I don't care if they find ways to avoid punitive taxes, I would like to know how they do it so I could do it too.

Personally, I would prefer a flat tax of say 10 percent across the board, no exceptions. Much easier to figure, equal for everyone.

Right now I put a lot into retirement accounts to limit my liabilities, and have agricultural and corporate protections to limit my liability.

Yeah, it's a lot more work, but I figure it is the price I pay to try and keep some of my own money.

It is apparent you want people punished for trying to keep some of their own money, your opinion and you are welcome to it.

For myself, every dollar I can keep in my pocket, even if I have to earn it twice by having a second job of finding ways to legally keep it instead of giving it to the government, I see as worthwhile.

Every penny I can keep instead of handing over to the guys with the guns and jails, I see as a small victory for myself.
I may have to live under the radar, defer the money I actually have in my pocket, check the tax impacts of any purchase or investment, but if it allows me to keep some of my own money, it's worth it.

You can simply sign over your paycheck to Cheyenne if you want, I prefer to keep mine.
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Old 03-08-2014, 06:58 PM
 
Location: Cabin Creek
3,072 posts, read 4,843,421 times
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looked at ranches in Montana... accountant said nope! then said why pay for it twice thru high property taxes
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Old 03-08-2014, 07:36 PM
 
11,284 posts, read 46,201,163 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MTSilvertip View Post
I don't care what taxes other people pay, I don't care if they find ways to avoid punitive taxes, I would like to know how they do it so I could do it too.

OK, I understand you favor anarchy and find no redeeming society common values in the gov't or the benefits of various taxes.

To you, it's all a game to not pay taxes, and you condone and envy those who have figured out how not to do so ... by any means possible.

I defy you to show me that you don't benefit from the common good that results from some of the taxes. Unless you're living under a rock without any infrastructure, you are deriving benefits from the tax systems in place ... up to and including national defense, a legal system, roads, and many other public benefits.

While there are taxes that I think are unjust and unfair, and put to benefits that are unjust to those who pay them ... not all taxes are bad, as you seem to assert.



Personally, I would prefer a flat tax of say 10 percent across the board, no exceptions. Much easier to figure, equal for everyone.

Flat tax works for me, too. I've put my money where my mouth is on this issue and supported candidates and organizations that have advocated for this change.


It is apparent you want people punished for trying to keep some of their own money, your opinion and you are welcome to it.

Very wrong assumption on your part. I've been taken to task for my views quite to the contrary on this score on other C-D threads, such as why I should be allowed to have the choice and excercise the freedom to buy the motor vehicles that I want ... including pick-up trucks, personal use aircraft, or pleasure boats, etc.

I wish no punishment upon others for their freedom of choice as to how they spend their hard-earned money.


For myself, every dollar I can keep in my pocket, even if I have to earn it twice by having a second job of finding ways to legally keep it instead of giving it to the government, I see as worthwhile.

For those of us who have already spent 50 years of productive working life at multiple jobs/occupations at the same time ... working 70-80+ hours per week for years on end, you're no trailblazer with unique insights into how to get ahead.

I'm well past retirement age and still work 70+ hour weeks, more during those times when my ranch/farming operations require it.



You can simply sign over your paycheck to Cheyenne if you want, I prefer to keep mine.
Just to clarify this ... I haven't worked for an employee paycheck in over 50 years. I've been self-employed or a 1099 independent contractor all my life.

But I'll bet that one of the things that separates us is that I don't sit on my butt and pontificate about the unjust taxes as I see them and advise to avoid paying them by any means possible. ... I'm one of the folk that is down at the statehouse testifying on these issues, and advocating changes in tax policy at the state and federal levels. I make political contributions to the candidates and the organizations that support my views ... Do YOU?



What's again really laughable here is that you persist in decrying the tax laws of Wyoming yet live in a state by choice that is far more abusive (if not punitive) than WY. So I infer that you support MT's punitive tax system, as long as it's paid by others. You, by your own admission, prefer to skip out on your obligations and seek to do the same as others who have done so ... essentially revealing that you're a tax scofflaw. So be it.

Last edited by sunsprit; 03-08-2014 at 07:50 PM..
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Old 03-08-2014, 08:03 PM
 
Location: mid wyoming
2,008 posts, read 6,263,459 times
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I know three people here in Casper and outlying areas that have had out of state plates for up to 25 years. I don't even bother to tell the police, all the people have their vehicles garaged until they need to drive them and then around they go as they please....
One real bad problem I have is all the out of state plates at our Cheyenne area. The state is good enough to come to work here but they won't/don't tag their vehicles here. This has went on for over 45 years that I have paid attention to this. Now days here in Casper there are so many vehicles that have out of state plates on them for months to years. I vividly remember whey the police would sit outside the gates of the larger employers and wait until the people would get off work and many, many times they had multiple law enforcement personnel there to issue tickets for the illegal plates to all no excuses!
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Old 03-08-2014, 08:35 PM
 
11,284 posts, read 46,201,163 times
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shadowalker wrote:

"I vividly remember whey the police would sit outside the gates of the larger employers and wait until the people would get off work and many, many times they had multiple law enforcement personnel there to issue tickets for the illegal plates to all no excuses!"

Denver PD used to do the same at the old Gates Rubber Plant and a few other major employers ... like the parking lot at the Montgomery Wards complex on South Broadway. Also at the old Cudahy Packing plant ... They don't seem to do this type of enforcement anymore, it appears they depend upon catching scofflaws by cross checking through the tax records or by verifying paperwork at traffic stops for other reasons, in line with stopping vehicles for a taillight out ... the liklihood is that somebody who is not in compliance on the small stuff will not be in compliance on other issues.

Boulder PD did that a few times at Beech. Some folks got busted for not having properly licensed their cars for many years ... and once they got the attention of the tax folk, it kinda' snowballed into research on their other tax responsibilities, including state/federal income tax audits. The upside of saving a few Colorado tax dollars was more than offset by the fines and penalties that ensued; even the accounting costs of defending the tax audits were pricey. I recall one fellow making the news about having over $20,000 due in back taxes/fines/penalties on motor vehicles ... back when $20K was a lot more money than it is today.

The tax authorities in every state are under the gun these days to maximize the legitimate sources of revenue due them. I have no doubt that they will get more creative in tracking down the tax cheats as more information about folk's use of money becomes ever increasingly tracked through the system.

The database to mine is substantial, but it sure wouldn't be that difficult to correlate the primary residence addresses against where folk have their motor vehicles registered. The insurance companies already have that correlation in hand; again, it's in their best interests to be sure that they're not being mislead by a policy holder as to the risks that they are underwriting.
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Old 03-08-2014, 09:07 PM
 
Location: Where the mountains touch the sky
5,692 posts, read 6,507,896 times
Reputation: 10558
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunsprit View Post
Just to clarify this ... I haven't worked for an employee paycheck in over 50 years. I've been self-employed or a 1099 independent contractor all my life.

But I'll bet that one of the things that separates us is that I don't sit on my butt and pontificate about the unjust taxes as I see them and advise to avoid paying them by any means possible. ... I'm one of the folk that is down at the statehouse testifying on these issues, and advocating changes in tax policy at the state and federal levels. I make political contributions to the candidates and the organizations that support my views ... Do YOU?

In fact I do, and I know many of the state officials personally, and they are well aware of my views.
I also have a full time job with a paycheck, operate a ranch, and have a corporation on the side, so I well know working for 14-16 hours a day every day, which is the main reason I dislike taxes so much. I don't see they have the right to take what I worked for.


What's again really laughable here is that you persist in decrying the tax laws of Wyoming yet live in a state by choice that is far more abusive (if not punitive) than WY. So I infer that you support MT's punitive tax system, as long as it's paid by others. You, by your own admission, prefer to skip out on your obligations and seek to do the same as others who have done so ... essentially revealing that you're a tax scofflaw. So be it.
Yeah, I live in Montana partly because I am very aware of the tax laws here, and how to preserve my assets here. I could live in Wyoming, but then I would have to learn how to cover my assets all over again.

You probably haven't noticed that the political pendulum in Montana has swung back to the side of the people in the last few years, and that a lot of the legislators now in Helena are of the opinion that government has to be limited as much as possible.

Anarchy?? No idea where you get that impression, I just abhor confiscatory taxes that serve only to feed a political agenda and do absolutely no good to the general populace.

The military is one of the few areas that I don't mind paying for as it is one of the reasons to have a government, you know, "provide for the common defense"?

I do use the roads, but I also make a lot of my own fuel, no tax.
As to the city or county plowing the roads, they use solar power here and let it melt off instead of running a plow.
One good thing about that is the snow fills the potholes so the roads are a lot smoother once it's packed down.

I have to pay property taxes to support the schools even though I don't have kids, but the one property costs around 30 cents an acre in tax, which I can live with.

Montana property taxes are based on the school district, so rural counties with few kids don't charge as much as the resort towns. You plan, you look at the downsides to an area, and you use that to make your decision. I'm not a "scofflaw", (by the way, personal attacks are against the TOS), I just refuse to give up my money without a fight.

You make your choices, I make mine. If someone asks me how to set up a business in Montana to avoid the sales taxes of other states, I have absolutely no problem telling them how to do it, and I will continue to do it because it's legal.
Why don't you get upset about the folks that buy everything online? They aren't paying your sales tax either

Just saying....
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Old 03-08-2014, 09:51 PM
 
Location: Spots Wyoming
18,696 posts, read 37,979,346 times
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When I hauled Rail Roaders, the company was based out of Bismark North Dakota, however, each of the vans were licensed in their respective states that they were used in. The company hauled rail roaders in North Dakota, South Dakota, Montana, Wyoming, Idaho, Washington, and Nebraska. Often, we would swap vans due to shortages in a particular area, and when we did, those vans got additional license plates attached.

For instance. I drove out of Wyoming, van was licensed in Wyoming. I blew an engine. The office in Havre Montana sent a van down. I drove it less than a month on Montana plates and was pulled over for no Wyoming tags. The Highway patrol asked me where it was garaged at night. I told him it was a loaner from Havre, and would be going back there, as soon as my van come out of the shop. He said, "It doesn't make any difference, you have used it and garaged it here in Wyoming, more than the alloted time." He sited me for invalid registration and tags. I then run with Wyoming and Montana tags on the van.

A driver down in Edgemont had one of our Wyoming vans, similar situation. That driver was sited by a South Dakota trouper for invalid registration and tags. Our van got licensed down there and when we got it back it had Wyoming and South Dakota tags on it.

It doesn't make any difference where the owner lives, it makes a difference on where the vehicle is used and where it is garaged/kept and how long it is there. You can not legally keep a vehicle, tagged in another state, in the state you are using it in.
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Old 03-08-2014, 10:21 PM
 
11,284 posts, read 46,201,163 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MTSilvertip View Post
Yeah, I live in Montana partly because I am very aware of the tax laws here, and how to preserve my assets here. I could live in Wyoming, but then I would have to learn how to cover my assets all over again.

Given your prediliction for avoiding tax payments by any means possible, you'd probably find it easier to avoid the fewer taxes in WY than MT. But as a taxpaying resident here, I'm glad that you prefer to avoid paying your taxes in MT than WY.

You probably haven't noticed that the political pendulum in Montana has swung back to the side of the people in the last few years, and that a lot of the legislators now in Helena are of the opinion that government has to be limited as much as possible.

actually, I've been watching our neighbor to the North for some time. Some of the primary reasons that Montana wasn't on my list of prospective residence states or a place for real estate investment was due to the sizable liberal tendencies of MT, it's not a "right to work state", and the significantly higher overall tax bite than WY ... without visible benefits to the taxpayers; ie, MT supports far more liberal social programs than WY.

The small incremental increase in red state programs/attitudes in MT over the "last few years" is a step in the right direction, IMO, but it's still a shockingly small increment given the obvious failures of the current administration social welfare programs.

MT has a fair larger young liberal population than WY, and I'm not convinced that their influence for many years won't be the political guidance on many issues which will require substantial taxes.

MT has certainly pulled off the hat trick of significantly higher tax revenues for schools while providing for lower teacher salaries. IMO, it's the teachers, the front line of educators that the kids see that are the critical providers of quality education. Not the fancy facilities, not the top-heavy managment that appear to burn through much of the MT school system budget.



Anarchy?? No idea where you get that impression, I just abhor confiscatory taxes that serve only to feed a political agenda and do absolutely no good to the general populace.

You're a textbook case of an anarchist. You're so buried into the philosophy of it that you can't even recognize it.

You've come on here to advocate, admire, and declare your desire to emulate further those who have succeeded in skipping out on their taxes, not following the laws of the land. You assert that you've done some of this yourself and wish to do even more. You're clearly advocating and telling others not to follow the laws and smug about it too with your rationalizations as to why you don't and others shouldn't follow the laws. That's anarchy ... pure and simple ... as in each person gets to decide what laws they need to follow.


The military is one of the few areas that I don't mind paying for as it is one of the reasons to have a government, you know, "provide for the common defense"?

Certainly one of the primary functions of the gov't. At least you recognize there is the potential for "good" in taxes.

I do use the roads, but I also make a lot of my own fuel, no tax.

It's a legal practice at this time, and since fuel is taxed per gallon, you'll do OK with the right vehicles, for now where mileage taxes aren't in vogue or yet on the books.

I assume you're making biodiesel. But the business of doing so is becoming profitable enough that the raw sources of materials are heading into the control of a few players in the industry. Here's why:

I know of one outfit here in WY, several in CO and UT, and a few others around the country that are contracting with the users of vegetable/cooking oils to supply them with draintainers and pick up their waste product on a schedule to accomodate their needs. The day of "free" waste cooking or process oils is rapidly coming to an end as the food industry users realize that they have another revenue source in their business model. Unless you're a volume user of the waste product, you can't compete with the price and convenience that the big commercial players are bringing into this industry. The big player in UT is a petroleum distributor/retailer now, with lots of stations; they are adding biodiesel to their retail product mix now at the pumps. Ergo, they have to secure their raw materials ... which they are aggressively doing ... and then they have a retail outlet to move the finished product. They're there to pick up every week, where it's unlikely that you as a single user would have anywhere near that storage/processing/delivery capacity. Follow the money ... you can find the biodiesel product at the retail pumps now at the truckstops.

The only way you'll be able to get ahead of their business model for raw goods supply is if you raise your own biomass or algae source to process.


(snip)

I have to pay property taxes to support the schools even though I don't have kids, but the one property costs around 30 cents an acre in tax, which I can live with.

I put two kids through public schools for 12 years each ... but I've been paying property taxes to support the schools for over 50 years now. Kinda' makes their education look rather pricey, in view of the taxes paid on multiple SFH's in CO; as a real estate investor, I've got school tax mill levy's that add up to mid 5-figures anually.

Montana property taxes are based on the school district, so rural counties with few kids don't charge as much as the resort towns. You plan, you look at the downsides to an area, and you use that to make your decision. I'm not a "scofflaw", (by the way, personal attacks are against the TOS), I just refuse to give up my money without a fight.

By definition, it isn't a personal attack when all we've done is put a label on the behavior which you have stated you do without any provocation on my part.

You've also attacked me with your characterizations here where you put words in my mouth about activities which are foreign to what I've repeatedly advocated on the C-D pages.


You make your choices, I make mine. If someone asks me how to set up a business in Montana to avoid the sales taxes of other states, I have absolutely no problem telling them how to do it, and I will continue to do it because it's legal.

Sorry, wrong. Your advocacy of avoiding the legitimate sales taxes of other states is suborning perjury. Your whole premise of avoiding sales taxes on a motor vehicle sale to a WY resident is based upon fraud. Your whole premise that it's legal to operate a motor vehicle in WY without registering it here is wrong, illegal, and you persist in wanting to tell folk that it's OK and you encourage them to do so.

Why don't you get upset about the folks that buy everything online? They aren't paying your sales tax either

Fodder for another thread. As it is, there's a lot of flaws in the overall tax codes which I do believe need to be addressed. For those buyers in MT, it's no gain.

Just saying....
all the more reason to consider a uniform flat tax system throughout the USA as opposed to all of the state, county, and municipal codes. [domain blocked due to spam] for another forum, not the legal aspects of owning/operating a motor vehicle here in WY.

PS: again getting a chuckle out of this thread ... you apparently don't have the ability to discern the difference between advocating illegal activity (not following the vehicle sales tax and license laws of WY) and the legal activity of making an on-line purchase of consumer goods which isn't taxed.

FWIW, I have bought cars on eBay and when I drove them home to WY, I paid the appropriate WY sales tax and registration fees ... and some of these cars came from other states where the license plate stays with the car so were still sporting current stickers when I took delivery of the vehicle. Absent a stop/inquiry by a law enforcement officer, nobody would have been the wiser about the new ownership of the vehicle and I could have kept driving same for quite awhile ... but you see, here's a key difference between you and me: I have a set of standards, and I know that I need to pay my tax liabilities. I guess it's all about ethics ... what you do when somebody in authority isn't looking over your shoulder to be sure that you do the right thing.

Last edited by sunsprit; 03-08-2014 at 11:26 PM..
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