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This is a topic upon which I've posted numerous threads through the years in this forum.
I can only reiterate what juneaubound has suggested: Verify every important issue for yourself.
Have your own survey, appraisal, inspections, verification of water, access, easements, use, mineral rights, zoning, fence lines, condition of systems/electrical/plumbing done on your behalf. Leave nothing to the real estate agents and their representations. Their sole motivation is to get you to "yes" with a signature on the sales contract.
Don't make any assumptions about a property. The agents here are well versed in the arts of nodding an acknowledgement that you've made the assumption and not necessarily agreeing with your statement. They are skilled at plausible denial of anything they may have said or representations which you have interpreted in the context of your real estate dealings in other areas of the USA. Anything which is important to you for inclusion in the property, be sure it's spelled out in the contract in writing. "good faith" is simply not sufficient to protect your interests, no matter how much an agent or broker will try to trivialize your concern.
Typically, most buyers from other areas expect competent ethical behavior and honest answers to reasonable concerns about a real estate deal. The "norm" is to assume honesty and correct answers. Unfortunately, the standards of the profession here in Wyoming don't rise to that level of good faith dealings.
I'll repeat here one of my most recent areas of a screw job in a real estate deal: the Title Insurance Company calculated the real estate taxes proration on the basis that Wyoming property taxes are paid in arrears (as is done in so many states). So they deducted the portion of the year from my proceeds as the seller, credited to the buyer with the assumption that the buyer would pay that calendar year property taxes in the next year.
Such is not the case in Wyoming. The statutes clearly spell out that the "owner of record on January 1st" of a taxable year is the one who gets the bill for that calendar year. So the property tax bill sent out in August that is due in full by December 31st of that calendar year is paid in full by the seller. That includes paying the taxes for that portion of the year that the buyer has ownership of the property. The new assessor report reflecting the transfer of ownership for the next January 1st taxable year will not come out until the following January 1st. (the ignorant bit**es at the Title Insurance company defiantly supplied me with a copy of the statute as "proof" that they'd done their job properly. Even when I used a highlighter on the specific time frame for the taxable year sentences in the document so they could see the pertinent details, they still insisted they'd done their job properly and I was just an ignorant fool. They, of course, are "experts" and "professionals" at what they do. BS. But they have the "arrogant act" down pat. You'll encounter this throughout the RE profession in Wyoming … you don't know sh*t, they're the "experts".)
The point here is that you must take it upon yourself to review each and every document pertaining to the transaction. Do not assume or expect that your agent/broker will do so. Their sole interest in the transaction is seeing their commission check reach their checking account. Note that, by Wyoming law, the fiduciary responsibility of the agents are to the seller to whom they look to for their earned commission. Even though Wyoming now has "dual agency" in the books, do not expect a "buyer agent" to act fully on your behalf as you might expect in other markets.
PS: remember that Wyoming is a "non-reporting" state; ie, the sales price of a real estate deal is the confidential information limited to the parties to the transaction and the county assessor's office. An agent can tell you any number they care to for a comparison and you have little means to verify it. Your best option for a comparison will be to retain your own appraiser acting solely on your behalf.
PPS: and yes, I've caught Wyoming real estate agents in major violations of the statutes, and filed a complaint with the RE commission. The biggest response I got out of them was a horrified reaction that I'd used a "damn" (profanity!!! we can't have that in our office!) when I was describing the circumstances of the violation. The bottom line is do not expect that the regulatory agency here will act to protect you when things aren't done properly.
Reading this (again) causes me so much consternation and distress, I can hardly begin to describe it. How is a single woman moving from another state to be expected to know who to call to arrange independent surveys, appraisals, inspections and the like? I cannot fathom.
Every time I read a post like this regarding the nature of WY RE transactions, I consider maybe I'd be better of staying put in my little PIF brick ranch in OH.
Reading this (again) causes me so much consternation and distress, I can hardly begin to describe it. How is a single woman moving from another state to be expected to know who to call to arrange independent surveys, appraisals, inspections and the like? I cannot fathom.
Every time I read a post like this regarding the nature of WY RE transactions, I consider maybe I'd be better of staying put in my little PIF brick ranch in OH.
And THAT makes me very, very sad.
Let your accountant do most the work , they work much cheaper then a lawyer and usually know as much as a good lawyer about restate transactions.
Reading this (again) causes me so much consternation and distress, I can hardly begin to describe it. How is a single woman moving from another state to be expected to know who to call to arrange independent surveys, appraisals, inspections and the like? I cannot fathom.
The process of purchasing real estate here is essentially no different than buying in any other state.
The difference is that your interests are best represented by yourself rather than relying upon the representations and assumptions of the RE agents here.
It's not that difficult to do.
The county offices will have the Zoning & Planning department, where you can verify the zoning. The Clerk & Recorder's office will have the deed trail, and recorded easements on the property. Annexations, proposed annexations, proposed or existing special tax districts, tap & sewer fees, curbs/gutter, street improvements … all need to be investigated as they may pertain to a given property.
(For example: Cheyenne proposed a number of "flagpole annexations" in support of some new subdivisions. The unincorporated county residents along the "flagpole" were facing City mandated road improvements, curb & gutter, and mandatory hook-up to the municipal water and sewer system which would be installed in the new street projects, paid for by city property taxes. But the cost of hooking up to the muni system from the street/property line to the house was the sole expense of each property owner. And the special tax district for the curbs/gutters/sidewalk along the road was another huge bite for the property owners, some with 1/4 mile or more of street frontage. Folks on well/septic systems with no sidewalks to pay for or maintain and on fixed incomes were priced out of their homes. It was only because a number of these citizens complained at city council meetings that the issues became general public knowledge and ultimately class action suits against the developers & the city that the homeowners prevailed … at great expense to retain counsel and fight to keep their existing zoning.)
You'll find surveyors, residential real estate appraisers, and trades folk (electricians, plumbers, roofers, home inspectors) in the phone book. An evaluation report by tradespeople (an electrician, for example) as a pre-buy inspection for a fee may reveal defects/non code compliant installations, etc. You're seeking their recommendations about the condition of the house; they will be entitled to a fee for their service and report. A general "home inspector" may be able to provide a similar service, but many aren't as competent as the pro contractors specializing in a given trade.
Ask the local title insurance companies for their guidelines of a RE transaction. Many have a "for sale by owner" type packet which outlines the essential details of a RE deal and the process through to closing.
If the property you're interested in is in a HOA subdivision (ASK the RE agent), then you need to get a copy of the HOA CC&R's and review it BEFORE making any offer with an earnest money deposit. You need to compare the fees, the services, upcoming projects, code violations/enforcement, and so forth as they pertain to your "quiet enjoyment" of your property.
Your accountant can be a valuable resource. So can an agent in the area you currently reside with pointers about essential details of a RE transaction.
A "buyer's agent" may be helpful. I'd look for one who gets their fee from you, independent of the seller.
An independent insurance agent may provide insight into property and structure concerns.
An attorney may be desired to review your contract.
Get an appraisal on a residence before making an offer, especially with an earnest money deposit.
You may expect to pay reasonable fees for the services you request. So it's best to limit a lot of those support folks to a house or two that you really want.
The key to doing business here is to take your time to become knowledgeable about what you're buying. 99% of the process is common sense. Despite the way the RE industry pro's have positioned themselves for so many years with all the hocus-pocus of RE deals, it's not that difficult to follow the procedures, get the necessary questions asked and answered, and protect your interests in making a RE deal.
The alternative: find a real estate agent you like who seems to be working on your behalf and take your chances. Not every deal here is a difficult or bad one, but the frequency with which they can and do happen is daunting after dealing with better RE agents in other states.
Thank you. I will definitely save this information for future reference. I have bought and sold half a dozen properties in OH, but nothing has me so freaked out as the prospective of buying my next home in WY.
Here, all of the inspections and the appraisal are done after the buyer has made an offer and put down earnest money. If something comes back unacceptable, it reopens the negotiation in terms of selling price. A seller can walk away with earnest money in hand. I can't imagine any seller would let a stranger come into their house with tradesmen and appraisers before a signed contract was on the table.
Thank you. I will definitely save this information for future reference. I have bought and sold half a dozen properties in OH, but nothing has me so freaked out as the prospective of buying my next home in WY.
Here, all of the inspections and the appraisal are done after the buyer has made an offer and put down earnest money. If something comes back unacceptable, it reopens the negotiation in terms of selling price. A seller can walk away with earnest money in hand. I can't imagine any seller would let a stranger come into their house with tradesmen and appraisers before a signed contract was on the table.
Am I reading you wrong in terms of the timeline?
Much of the "due diligence" that I've mentioned would be done before making an offer with earnest money that does not require entry into the house.
Your visits to Z&P, your review of CC&R's, your general inquiries about the neighborhood and activities which might affect your quiet enjoyment, water service/water quality testing can be done without any inside visits except the one(s) you do with a RE agent.
The residential appraiser's report is usually done without needing an inside tour. Why do I consider this a valuable resource in buying a property here? because it's a non-reporting state, and you may find many properties on the market as "fishing expeditions" by the owners. IE, the property may have a FMV of $X, but the owner is willing to sell if $X+30-40 or even 50% dollars come forth. RE agents in this area are all too happy to take the listing … because if a buyer from out of the area comes along who sees acceptable value at the asked price, it's "found money" for them and the seller. Such has been the impact in numerous places around Wyoming, especially in the "boom" cycles that have taken place in certain communities. The RE agents will gladly tell you about the "comparable" property down the road from the one you're looking at that sold for what was an above market price per square foot as a justification for the excessive price on a property. Only … maybe that "price" was the "asked" price, not the sold price. Or maybe it was sold to an out of state buyer flush with cash from a higher priced marketplace (CA buyers coming to Wyoming come to mind) who perceive the Wyoming property as a "good buy".
Where I'm going with this is you cannot rely upon the price/value representations of a seller's obligated agent (remember, the primary fiduciary responsibility of an agent here, by law, is to the Seller). You may want to believe that an asked price is reasonable and the agent wants to establish "value" in your mindset. But here's a reference point: do you own research on a property via Zillow or comparable RE sites. Hmmm … could be revealing when you see that a property has been on the market for a year or more. Does that give you an idea that there may be something out of whack with the price/value/condition?
Another area that I've encountered RE agents here in Wyoming being less than forthcoming to get your signature on a contract: Repo's or bank owned properties. The agent shows you the property, cites the asked price … and only after you've signed the contract mentions that it will be a couple weeks before the "lender committee" reviews your offer. They may/may not accept it, because it's less than the defaulted note on the property and they have to decide if they're willing to take the loss to get the property sold. Yes, I've been there … offered full asked price on a property, had cash in hand to buy it … and the lender declined to accept the full price offer. Meanwhile, you've taken your resources out of play and perhaps passed up opportunities to buy a different property which was available at the time you were looking … and by the time the committee met and declined your offer, the other property was under contract.
With information in hand, do not be embarrassed or afraid to make a significantly less than asked price offer. By law, an agent must present all offers to the seller. This is business and it's your money. If you see a property listed for far in excess of what it appraised at, make your informed offer at a price you feel comfortable with. The seller might be willing to accept your offer, you don't know their circumstances (no matter what the line of malarkey given you by the RE agent may be). If the seller rejects your offer out of hand without any meaningful negotiation, then you know the property isn't going to be bought then at a reasonable FMV price.
If you've gotten to the point in a possible purchase that a contract has been accepted with a fully refundable earnest money deposit and a "due diligence" reasonable time frame to back out of the deal for any reason, then it's time to have the interior/property inspections done. You may then uncover problems with a property which are cause for concern, perhaps walking away from the deal … or renegotiations. Remember, renegotiations are grounds for a seller to walk away from the deal, too. And a fine point here, too … be sure that your earnest money deposit is fully refundable. For example, the ranch that I now live at had a buyer ahead of me who later backed out of the deal for some serious defects with the house and structures … only to discover that their $40,000 earnest money deposit was not refundable. Per the contract he signed, the earnest money deposit was to be retained by the seller as "liquidated damages" for taking the property off the market if the buyer didn't complete the transaction. I've seen more than a few sales contracts written up this way by RE agents in Wyoming, and either had that lined out or the contract raised so many red flags for me that I didn't pursue the property.
Good luck with your relocation adventure. Take the time to come visit, get familiar with the areas of interest to you, and check out the prices/values. There's good buys to be had, you just need to do your due diligence to uncover them. And there's not-so-good buys on offer in a lot of places, you just need to be informed to the point to recognize that the value may not be there … no matter how hard an agent is pushing you to buy there. Or not, as the case may be … there's a lot of agents here who get by on "found money" deals where they don't do much work, and no matter how likable they are personally, they sit back and let you sell yourself on a property. Their handling of a contract is minimal and their responses to your needs … especially after you've signed a contract … are typically non-existent and meaningless. IF your contract fails to go through … well, they'll be another one coming along sometime if they wait around long enough.
surveyors can get expensive , there are web pages and hard wear that you can map and get acres , the USDA - FSA use these for farm programs. I always laugh when two home owns fight over a two fit strip of ground... Buying a large property fences are not always on property lines, they ten to mover over on to Forest and BLM land by a few feet. But between neighbors it usually convenience. Like a fence line under a ridge where snow takes the fence out every winter. Terrain can be a factor , water . Have seen new owners move fence lines to property line and end up not having water in a large pasture . It easier to fence a quarter mile fence then 3/4 of a mile of fence on a 40 and usually there a 40 going the other way so every body still has the same but are not going to change deeds..
You will see x amount of acres +/_ a few and property boundary dose not match fence lines on listing for a lot of larger properties listings.
we actually did a 2 acre subdivision , with a tape and compass we had a monument close and went so many feet to our starting point...(using a range finder can help things go faster but you still need a tape ) County accepted it, we did have to go back and tweak it a little bit after the first go. Didn't have a couple thousand the surveyor wanted at the time.
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
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Originally Posted by OHNot4Me
Thank you. I will definitely save this information for future reference. I have bought and sold half a dozen properties in OH, but nothing has me so freaked out as the prospective of buying my next home in WY.
Here, all of the inspections and the appraisal are done after the buyer has made an offer and put down earnest money. If something comes back unacceptable, it reopens the negotiation in terms of selling price. A seller can walk away with earnest money in hand. I can't imagine any seller would let a stranger come into their house with tradesmen and appraisers before a signed contract was on the table.
Am I reading you wrong in terms of the timeline?
You are being wisely advised to do significant 'PRE Due Diligence', as you always should on Real Property.
You are not alone...there are millions doing transactions in "non-disclosure States"
The following states are considered non-disclosure: Alaska, Idaho, Kansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Missouri (some counties), Montana, New Mexico, North Dakota, Texas, Utah, and Wyoming. If you live in any of the above states, at least you now know why we don't currently have sales records in your area.
SS is emphasizing that you to do 'comprehensive' Pre Due Diligence' BEFORE entering an offer / agreement.
Then...
If you've gotten to the point in a possible purchase that a contract has been accepted with a fully refundable earnest money deposit and a "due diligence" reasonable time frame to back out of the deal for any reason, then it's time to have the interior/property inspections done. You may then uncover problems with a property which are cause for concern, perhaps walking away from the deal … or renegotiations. Remember, renegotiations are grounds for a seller to walk away from the deal, too. And a fine point here, too … be sure that your earnest money deposit is fully refundable.
Have a 'Walk Clause' in earnest money agreement for both buyer and seller. (as always)
Don't fear, Be informed, Be represented (realizing realtors have a far different objective than representing your interest) as they do nearly everywhere (within USA).
i.e. your REAL and effective representation and comprehensive information comes from elsewhere than a marketing group. You need to be aware of that and act accordingly (as you should elsewhere on any property dealings). WY being a non-disclosure state adds some challenges for you, but not impossible challenges. Now you are "educated", so 'go-forth and conquer.'
With information in hand, do not be embarrassed or afraid to make a significantly less than asked price offer. By law, an agent must present all offers to the seller. This is business and it's your money.
I am definitely not afraid to do this. :-)
And a fine point here, too … be sure that your earnest money deposit is fully refundable.
Excellent point!
And Jody, while I appreciate your advice re 40s, boundaries, and fencing, I had to laugh. I have an acre now, and that's about 7/8ths of an acre too much for me.
P.S. My apologies to the OP for hijacking this thread.
Now you are "educated", so 'go-forth and conquer.'
Spring 2021 can't come soon enough.
Thanks to all for the schoolin' and the encouragement. :-)
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