Is Wyoming Right for Me?

[AgathaABQluvr]

Sunsprit, I have even been offered raw land deals that offer 48 hours of due diligence to decide whether the “40 acre” tract was feasible. As much as the area sounded enticing, and as much as I have no problem living in extreme conditions, the deal was sounding like I was planning a retirement on Mars, when I just wanted some recreational camping area for a season. Thanks for saving me a bundle. If I am offered the job in Casper I think I will find a spot closer to town and take advantage of the already available parklands.

[AgathaABQluvr]

Originally Posted by sunsprit

it's been awhile since we've had a discussion about these "40 acre" contract to deed land sales in the area ... so, to recap, here's the main points:

1) these are subdivided lands on low-value ranching properties, primarily marketed to ...

2) out-of-state "investors" who are taken in by the romance/allure of a "piece of the 'old west" dream

3) for the most part, these parcels are located within working ranches that still run cattle, so

4) you're in "open range", where WY "fence-out" laws apply. IOW, if you don't want the seller using your parcel to run their livestock, you must fence your property with a "legal" fence (legal describes the construction details; ie, the spacing of the fence posts, the number of wires, to achieve a reasonable level of fencing out the livestock). The expense of the fence is all yours, pal ... and it's not insignificant to install. Bear in mind that wildlife and/or wintertime weather can tear down a fence in spots and you're without a secure fence until you repair it again.

5) many of these parcels have poor vehicle access, oft-times by old two-track paths. IOW, access is limited, and the "roads" are not county maintained. Frequently, you'll see the "fine print" of the promotion advising that 4-wheel drive vehicles are needed to access the parcels and that "wintertime conditions" may preclude access to the parcels. Absent an active homeowner's association that maintains and plows the roads for inclement weather access, you may find that your access is seasonally limited. Even if there's an "improved" dirt road to your parcel, you'll still be responsible for the costs of putting in and maintaining your driveway. Your building site may be quite some distance in from any developer's roadway. (I'm reminded of an 85-acre parcel I looked at a few years ago in that area ... it was accessed by a county road which had warning signs that the road was not maintained from Oct-April each year, so you traveled there at "your own risk". At that, the driveway into the parcel was a 1/2 mile long steep two-track ... very slick when wet, as it was that June day when we came to tour the property. The RE agent refused to drive down to the place from the county road for fear she'd get stuck with her SUV, so she handed us the keys to the buildings and invited us to hike on in while she waited in her vehicle. We hiked in, looked around, and realized that the place wasn't useable for at least 7 months of the year ... and it wasn't inexpensive. Not for us, thanks.)

6) generally, these parcels are sold without any improvements; ie, power, communications, water, septic, and no guaranty of habitability. For the most part, the functional utility comes at a substantial price, especially if there's no potable water to be had on the parcel. Be advised that just because there's a functioning well on an adjacent or nearby parcel, doesn't mean that you'll find water on yours. It's not just a matter of willingness to drill a "deep well", it's a matter of no water on your parcel at all, no matter how many dry holes you're willing to drill ... at great expense. Consequences: no water, no septic system. Yes, there's ways to deal with these situations ... solar/wind alternative energy, composting toilet or outhouse, truck in domestic water, and so forth. All come at a significant cost and continuing expense if you're going to live there. Laundry? Wintertime heating? it's a daunting list of things to deal with to assure habitability. On some other developments, I've seen a 2-3 GPM "seep" listed as being a "community use water source" as a potable water source for the parcels ... 2-3 GPM would be a marginal supply for a single residence, let alone multiple houses (don't forget the cost to install a pipe to your parcel) when folk are trying to wash dishes, take a shower, do laundry, etc. Forget about growing a garden or landscaping, too. (and in this area, it's a limited growing season, even with a greenhouse; you'll not produce much in the way of vege's for your consumption here)

7) know in advance that many services you may take for granted, such as a fire department ... many simply not be available. There are consequences from these situations, such as a residence not qualifying for homeowner's insurance. OK if you're willing to take on that risk, but if you need a loan to build a house, your lender may decline to make a loan ... leaving you with a contract-to-deed payment and financially unable to build on the property. Unless you can afford to pay cash for a house ... you may find building on one of these sites to be quite a problem, unlike the poster's assertion above. Personally, I've looked at several properties in the area where folk spent $seven figures to build a self-sufficient independent flight of fancy with all the latest energy efficient and on-site energy generators, water storage, and so forth ... making quite a statement about how it all could be done ... and then discovered that living there was a nightmare beyond their wildest dreams; the places went unsold at pennies on the dollar offers and I most certainly wasn't a player. Yes, indeed ... resale on these places is quite problematic.

8) most of these parcels have little to offer but a "view" of adjacent barren unproductive lands. The marketing brochures generally feature lakes and gorgeous mountain vistas and abundant wildlife. Yes, these may be in the area ... miles away ... but not necessarily on or near your parcel. Those pictures were taken during the "better" weather months by photographer pro's who know how to accentuate the scenic beauty of the lands. Buildable sites on your parcel with that "view" can oft-times not be found ... especially with the strong gusty winds that present in the area. Siting a residence on these places is more than just picking out a level spot with a view; ie, 100+ mph wind gusts pose construction issues for structures/roofs, as well as comfort levels for the inhabitants. You may well be confined to the house for months at a time except for absolutely essential outside tasks ... like clearing the wind-packed snowdrifts that block your doors, or access to a barn or garage. (It's not uncommon for a several inch snowfall to produce numerous 5-10-15-20' high drifts around a place in this area ... to the degree that vehicle use is impossible) As well, winter at this altitude will typically last 6-7 months ... and it's not a very pleasant place to be for that time; it's not like it's a snowy glade in the trees like New England scenic prints with a sleigh and happy family enjoying the winter clime ... this is a raw, brutal, violent winter experience here most of the winter time. Cold ambient temps and strong winds translate into "wind chill" factors well below 0F and exposure to this for humans, pets, and livestock is uncomfortable, if not deadly at times. Yes, there will be "moments" when all is still and the temps "not so bad" and it's a wonderful experience to be there amidst all that ... but keep it in perspective, it will be only a few "moments" out of those months. You've got to be pretty hardcore to endure so many hours/days/months of the harsh realities to be looking forward to those few "moments" that will present at these locations.

9) few such developments have zoning controls. The ones that have been developed to a higher level of amenities and water systems are not of the "inexpensive" variety.

10) bear in mind that a "contract to deed" sale retains deed/title ownership in the name of the seller until the contract has been paid off. Many buy these parcels sight unseen based upon the representations of the seller ... only to someday visit the parcel and see for themselves the challenges that present to achieve the "dream" on the property. Many then quit paying on the contract, forfeiting any money they've paid. And the seller keeps the property and all improvements made to it, they don't even need to file a foreclosure or eviction notice ... because you never owned the property and don't have a legal leasehold. Numerous parcels of these types have been sold and resold many times with the sellers benefitting from all the payments made on the contracts. These types of land sales are unlike the common real estate transactions in other states and few folk bother to read the "fine print" of the transaction in their joyous moments of buying their own "little piece of the old west". Don't be fooled, read carefully every little detail and seek local legal advice if you don't understand the implications of what you're getting for your money. You'll have nothing to stand on if you decide to walk away from your purchase, these contracts have been very carefully worded over decades to protect the seller's interest and will be upheld in any court here if you choose to pursue action. As well, the sellers are exceptionally well skilled in making no representations that lock them in to actionable issues ... you are essentially buying into a "dream" concept that they are representing "might" be available to you if you do everything right (and the sun, moon, stars, and climate) all align in your favor. This is why these parcel developers are so happy to extend a full financing deal to anybody who signs the paperwork and starts making payments ... because any and all money and value you add to a parcel is theirs to keep if and when you stop putting money into the parcel. (I note that some yeas ago, we had C-D posters who were living on properties like these and outlining/defending their efforts and expenses to try to live in such developments ... kinda' like the old threads of MLM product boosters who sang the praises of how life was going to be so good from all the profits they made ... and these threads have died out. Ya' know why? because reality caught up with most of these situations, and they really didn't pan out in the long run. OK, there's a few die-hards who will still put forth the effort and expense to make it work, no matter what ... but they're a distinct minority of such folk. If you've had any experience like I've had, you know a lot of folk who are now ex-Amway or similar scheme veterans who lost a ton of money on these programs)

11) as pointed out above, these land sales aren't good deals. Which is why few WY locals are buyers. These are marketing schemes for the unwary to bring in revenue to the sellers on otherwise very low dollar producing properties. Buyer Beware! Don't spend any money unless you've personally inspected the site, understand the limitations, and are willing to accept all the situations and expenses to "enjoy" your parcel. I consider these deals to be no better than a vacation property time-share contract except for the fact that you can "walk away" without incurring any additional costs beyond what you've spent. Yes, there are folk who have bought such contract parcels with a view towards using it for a base camp during hunting season or some other recreation limited time use ... but that's a far cry from considering such a property for a residence, even part-time. Do you own due diligence, do not rely upon the seller representations.

Thank you for saving me a bundle. Sunsprit, I have even been offered raw land deals that offer 48 hours of due diligence to decide whether the “40 acre” tract was feasible. As much as the area sounded enticing, and as much as I have no problem living in extreme conditions, the deal was sounding like I was planning a retirement on Mars, when I just wanted some recreational camping area for a season. Thanks for saving me a bundle. If I am offered the job in Casper I think I will find a spot closer to town and take advantage of the already available parklands.