Coming in from the Cold: Two Wyoming Programs Help Relieve the Financial Pinch of Home Heating

[BennyPhoenix]

Originally Posted by wyoquilter

I say what goes around comes around. If certain people don't like the Gov. stealing from them, then maybe they shouldn't be stealing from their consumers. I'm sorry, I'm all for people making money, but when it comes to charging outrageous prices and offer poor quality products and service or minimizing the amount of product we the consumer get for our dollar all so they can keep their pockets full, I call that stealing. At what point do they decide they have made or are making enough money to finally give a break to their consumers?

Yeah, so these people are or have created jobs, but sometimes the money a person makes at one of these jobs is not enough to pay the bills because the cost of living keeps going up.

Personally, I am more upset about my tax dollars going to pay over the top wages and benefits to the politicians than I am about giving a helping hand to someone who is down on their luck or is finding it a struggle to keep up with all the bills.

Easily the most specious argument I've heard in my life.
Basically, you're saying, that because you feel that some businesses are overcharging(which you consider stealing) that it is okay for the govt to steal.
Assume you are correct and that overcharging is stealing. Then your twisted logic makes it okay for the govt to steal from everybody, including from people who do not have businesses(and therefore cannot overcharge).

Anybody who thinks businesses overcharge should start a business and try running it profitably. It's not easy to do; even if you do overcharge.

BTW, the business I work for has invested several hundred million dollars in real estate. After expenses, payroll, and taxes the return on that investment has been between 5 and 6% per year. Do you think they overcharge?
Supermarket chains have return on investment of less than 5%. Do you think they overcharge?

[CptnRn]

Originally Posted by BennyPhoenix

Nonsense.
Govt cannot give charity. Govt steals from one group of people and gives it to another. Stealing is not charity.
You can use any words or warped logic to call it charity, but theft is theft.
If you think the govt provides charity then all you need to do is send a note with your tax return saying "I dont wish to to donate any money to the govt this year" and watch what happens. Then ignore the IRS notices and eventual "order to appear", and then men with guns will come to your home, arrest you, and then padlock your home. The salvation army, united way, red cross and all other charities dont do that.

Definition: Charity
1. generous actions or donations to aid the poor, ill, or helpless: to devote one's life to charity.
2. something given to a person or persons in need; alms: She asked for work, not charity.

The government practices charity every day in thousands of ways.

Taxation is not stealing, it is your legal obligation to help support the government and everything it does for all of us. We have taxation with representation. Tax evasion is stealing. Refusing to pay your share of the costs to run our government is a crime. Criminals get punished. What makes you so special that you should be excluded from this obligation?

[BennyPhoenix]

Another specious argument.
You are saying if someone steals money and then gives it to someone he deems is needy then it is charity.

You may believe that all taxation is necessary, but that doesn't mean it is not stealing.
Just because something is legal and done by the govt doesn't make it right.
In nazi germany it was legal to murder jews.
In saudi arabia, sudan and several other muslim countries slavery is legal. Slavery is a form of theft, it is the theft of someone's work and life. But it is legal so that is okay with the statist thinkers such as yourself.

[CptnRn]

Originally Posted by BennyPhoenix

Another specious argument.
You are saying if someone steals money and then gives it to someone he deems is needy then it is charity.

I said no such thing. You cannot put words into my mouth. The act of giving is charity. "Period".

A greedy selfish capitalist may cheat on his taxes, rob from his clients, employees and customers, and still give to charity.

You may believe that all taxation is necessary, but that doesn't mean it is not stealing.

Sure it does. Stealing is taking something you are not entitled to. Taxation is a taking that the government IS entitled to.

Just because something is legal and done by the govt doesn't make it right.

Right and criminal are two different things. But the fact that something is legal is a pretty good indication that most of the people who wrote the laws for that time period considered it an acceptable legal activity.

In nazi germany it was legal to murder jews.

OMG, are you truly so desperate you have to resort to a "Godwin" to make your argument! Godwin's law

This is association fallacy.. Association fallacy

Hitler was a vegetarian. Hitler was pure evil. Therefore, vegetarians have evil ideals.

Besides, you obviously don't know much about history. It was never "legal" in Germany to murder Jews. There was never any law passed approving the murder of Jews. The fact that it happened was not a matter of law, it was an abuse of power. That is why the Nazi's in power tried to hid it for so long, and why some German's, even many Nazi's were unaware it was going on.

In saudi arabia, sudan and several other muslim countries slavery is legal. Slavery is a form of theft, it is the theft of someone's work and life. But it is legal so that is okay with the statist thinkers such as yourself.

Again you clearly don't know what you are talking about and probably don't have any real facts behind your declaration. For example, there are instances where men treat their "married" wives as chattle, etc., and I don't condone this, but its not the same thing as it "slavery is legal". if you have any evidence of laws that clearly state "slavery is legal" share them with us.

Your declaration that I am a "Statist" demonstrates that you don't even know what the word means. Another example of your association fallacy leanings.

In some cases I sometimes say "X" or something like it. In some cases some Statist's say "X" or something like it, therefore, in your simpleminded way of thinking, I must be a Statist.

Wrong.

[BennyPhoenix]

Only a fool thinks that because a govt has the power to steal that it is entitled to steal.
Definition of steal: take without the owner's consent.
Perhaps you consent to the taking of your money. Many people and me do not consent, therefore it is stealing. My 6 year old child understands that taking something from somebody without their consent is stealing. It's amazing that an adult doesn't understand this.

Admit it. You condone stealing. You can call it anything you want but it is still stealing. You can call a chicken a boat but it will still be a chicken. You have a future in politics.

[ElkHunter]

Let's get it back on topic and stop picking apart every word that's said. If we can't do that, I'll close it.

[CptnRn]

Originally Posted by CptnRn

I saw this article and thought this information might be useful to some of you.

Coming in from the Cold: Two Wyoming Programs Help Relieve the Financial Pinch of Home Heating (http://www.aarp.org/states/wy/news/articles/coming_in_from_the_cold.html - broken link)

LIEAP and Weatherization Services are energy assistance programs administered by the Wyoming Department of Family Services for income-eligible residents.

LIEAP and Weatherization Services accept applications through Feb. 28, 2010. Income guidelines are based on the size of the household, for instance: Individuals earning $1,893 or less a month, couples making $2,475 or less per month, and a family of four with a total monthly income of $3,639 or less may be eligible for LIEAP and Weatherization services. Visit online or call 1-800-246-4221 for more information. Wyoming LIEAP Services

Most people pay taxes their entire lives, this is a chance for them to get back a little of what they paid in.

I participated in a similar program to this in 2007. I had the 18 year old HVAC completely replaced on my 1989 house. Had extra insulation added as well as some additional weather stripping and duct sealing.

We are very happy with the performance of the new HVAC. The house is always comfortable, including on the coldest and hottest days . The units are so quiet we rarely hear them running.

I have been keeping a graph tracking my utility usage since we bought the house in 2005. Since the installation of the new HVAC our annual electrical consumption has been reduced by 35% and our gas consumption has been reduced by 11% from previous years. I need to calculate the savings in dollars, have not done that yet. But I'm confident the HVAC improvements are paying for themselves. As part of this program I received utility company rebates totaling $2,232 which helped pay for the higher efficiency HVAC unit.

This year the Energy Incentives for Individuals in the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act also allows you a tax credit of 30% (up to $1,500) of the cost of energy efficiency upgrades like these.

Read more about it here Energy Incentives for Individuals in the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act

[Froggie Legs]

Originally Posted by ElkHunter

Let's get it back on topic and stop picking apart every word that's said. If we can't do that, I'll close it.

I came across this little gem that is a good reminder for any type of debate:


"Before commenting, please recite:
Grant me the serenity to ignore the trolls,
the courage to debate with honest opponents,
and the wisdom to know the difference."



I've participated in energy programs here as well... living in a poorly insulated mobile home we are renting, we needed the help with out natural gas bills. We wish we could have done the weatherization (we qualify, but we don't own the place).

I pay taxes, especially the extra high ones in Minnesota which funds social programs, and when I am again gainfully employed (more than just substitute teaching) I will again pay more taxes. I don't think of it as charity from the government, but from the people.. like you and me.

As Glenn Beck recently said " We need people that have something left to be able to lead us out. And charity. Faith, hope and charity. Charity comes from the individual. You do any kind of charity you want. You want to be charitable? Understand the Constitution."

But if the government takes all of our hard working money and manages it poorly, I do get upset. What happened to reasonable "taxation" with honest and fair "representation"... ? Seems the "representation" part was thrown out the window in this past year, especially.

[ElkHunter]

LIEAP will do the weatherization even if you rent. They will need the ok from the owner. A neighbor of mine did it to their rental. And what owner would turn it down?

[Froggie Legs]

here they said the owner would have to be responsible first, but if the owner qualified then they'd pay for it. My parents are the owners and they didn't qualify. Oh well.. I'm hoping that we won't have to live here too much longer