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All levels of culture are included in this comparative study between Ancient Egypt and sub-Saharan Africa. Many similarities arise, particularly in the fields of:
linguistics, with modern sub-Saharan African languages being compared to the Egyptian languages, Pharaonic and Copte. Similarities exist in grammar (morphology and syntax), conjugation and vocabulary...
No modern linguist takes cheikh anta diop's lexical comparisons seriously. Egyptians spoke an extinct language from the Afro-Asiatic language phylum which emerged from Northeastern Africa and only came into contact with the West via Berber and Chadic speakers; not Egyptian. West Africans themselves are overwhelmingly Niger-Congo speakers, a language phylum which formed in West Africa; not in Egypt.
Therefore, there is no linguistic continuity between West/Central Africa and Egypt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkc2j
architecture, where monuments in Egypt, Nubia, Ethiopia, Mali and Zimbabwe were studied. An historical continuity was established.
There is no established continuity in the architecture of these places. Ethiopia got its foreign architectural influence mostly from ancient Yemen and later Greece and Byzantium. Mali was a Medieval civilization who got its architectural influence from indigenous sources and some from Islam; not Ancient Egypt. Zimbabwe as another post-antiquity civilization that probably had no clue about any ancient Egypt until modern times.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkc2j
the craft industry. Multiple objects of everyday life were researched: head-rests, combs, woven clothing, sandals, brushes, decorated water bottles... proving direct inspiration and perpetuation of tradition.[*]ways of life. Royal badges (scepters, whips, sticks, flagellum...), hairstyles, musical instruments (such as harps which are to be found in Egypt and Central Africa), clothing and ornaments (jewelry...) are compared.[*]technology, studying different techniques used to manufacture tools and objects (control of fire, cooking, metallurgy...) as well as the tools themselves, such as the hoe (design, utilization, symbolic references, terms of indication).[*]writing. Contemporary sub-Saharan Africa has preserved written forms of hieroglyphic writing (Vaï, Bamoun, Nsibidi, etc.) that are similar to Egyptian hieroglyphics.[*]art, where sculptures from different artists in pharonic Egypt, Benin, Nigeria, the Massaï country, and Zimbabwe are compared...
Again, no evidence provided that explicitly states that any similarity of any objects found in any of these regions is a result of any direct cultural influence. They don't even care to explain how such influence could have occurred. There is no archaeological evidence of any contacts in Africa between ancient Egypt and any place outside of the Nile Valley.
Neither you or anyone else has cared to give a scenario where any such situation could have occurred that is accordant with archaeological evidence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkc2j
B. Sociological arguments
The study of their sociology highlights even more features common to the civilizations of ancient Egypt and sub-Saharan Africa. In particular...
matriarchy, characterized by both societies being organized around women.
totemism, or the complex association of an animal (for example the falcon, the crowned crane, the crocodile, or the cat...) with an individual or a group and used in forms of worship.
religion, which reveals the Egyptian/Nubian pantheon replicated in Benin, Togo and Nigeria from the Fon, Ewé and Yoruba cultures.
philosophy
ethonyms, or the fact that the names of cultural human groups in modern Africa still carry many of the names used in ancient Egypt: Atoum, Antef, Sek, Meri, Kara, Bara, Bari, Raka, Sen Sar, Kaba, Keti, Amenti, Kamara, Konare, Sankale, Sangare, Sankare, etc.
attributes of royalty like the uræus are represented on the royal crown of the Pharaon and of Oni d'Ife respectively.
systems of knowledge transmission. An essential common characteristic between ancient Egypt and sahelian Africa: knowledge transmission begins.
I haven't seen any evidence that the kingdoms/empires of the northeast or those in West Africa were matriarchies. They were all mostly headed by men, developed and maintained by men, with the most power almost always left in the hands of men, just like anywhere else in the world. Women may have had more liberties than in other societies, but they were still not matriarchal in organization.
Also, nowhere in here does this source demonstrate how and when any cultural influences took place. There is no evidence that any Yoruba or Asante knew about any ancient Egyptians before the modern era. Timbuktu scholars knew more about Ancient Greek philosophy than any Egyptian one, if they knew of any at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkc2j
C. Anthropologic arguments
Such as:
the study of Egyptian hieroglyphic texts and terms which show that the inhabitants of ancient Egypt considered themselves as Negroes.
the study of the writings of Herodotus (480? - 425 B.C.), considered the "Father of History", a seasoned traveller and an eye-witness, as well as other Greek and Roman philosophers and historians each illustrating the observable genetic traits of the ancient Egyptians.
the study of the Bible as well as Jewish and Muslim traditions, each preserving the memory of the line of Cham, biblical ancestor of the Blacks: particularly Kush (Kouch) and Misraïm (Egypt).
iconography (sculptures and paintings).
physical anthropology and molecular biology and the osteopathic study of skeletons, the study of the mummies blood groups and skin pigmentation (melanin, the chemical compound dictating skin color, is preserved in time and should not be confused with mummification products such as bitumen), etc., all reveal a relation between the ancient Egyptians and the Negro-African populations.
No it doesn't. When did Egyptians ever refer to themselves as Negroes?
None of this last segment says anything about relation between Western Africa and Northeastern Africa.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkc2j
D. Historical arguments
These arguments damage the theory that the origin of the Egyptian civilization is Lower Egypt and the countries of the Middle East by pointing to Upper Egypt and towards Africa in the south. The arguments are based on:
the study of hieroglyphic Egyptian texts which show that the typical ancient Egyptian was oriented towards the south, or the direction of the land of their ancestors, who had, over time, redirected the course of the "divine" Nile. Indeed, for the ancient Egyptian, the sun rose to the left and set to the right.
the historical tradition in which Diodora of Sicily (approx. 90 - 20 B.C.) writes: "The Ethiopians say that the Egypt is one of their colonies, their colonists having been led to Egypt by Osiris. They even claim that this country was nothing more than a sea at the beginning of the world, and that the flooding of the Nile had brought silt converting this sea into a part of the continent."
geophysics and the geological dating of samples using physio-chemical methods such as Carbon-14 dating make it possible to establish at what time the Nile Delta formed and to confirm or refute the information presented by Diodora of Sicily and Herodotus concerning the Egyptians and the Ethiopians. This wish was in a way granted with geological dating of the sea bed. In chapter 5, "Legends, Stories, Sea Level", of his book Man and Climate (Paris, Éditions Denoël, 1985), Jacques Labeyrie, the former director of the CEA-CNRS center of radioactivity, indicates that the results of these datings establish that the northern movement of the Egyptian civilization towards the delta is correlated with the lowering sea level, directly refuting earlier held beliefs.
archaeology, with the excavations carried out in Upper Egypt and Sudan, highlighting the southernmost origin of Egyptian civilization.
At the close of the Egyptology conference in Cairo, Sheik Anta Diop called for a reorientation of the study of Egyptology, accompanied by a dialogue with African researchers: "This conference could be regarded as a turning point, making possible the reconciliation of Egyptology with Africa, and the rediscovery of its richness. The scientific dialogue on the international level is well established, and one should hope that it will not be broken. Following the discussions, participants did not fail to express their will to reorientate their work towards Africa and to intensify their collaboration with African researchers. African studies will not escape the vicious circle in which they move unless they find their direction and their richness by turning towards the Nile valley. In turn, Egyptology will not leave its secular sclerosis of hermetism and of texts until the day it finds the courage to destroy the valve which insulates it, consequently opening itself to its invigorating source, the Negro world." (in Anteriority of Negro Civilizations - Myth or Historical Truth?)
More information can be found at http://www.ankhonline.com/egypte1.htm and http://www.ankhonline.com/cheikh.htm.
None of this stuff speaks to any West African/Egyptian relationship. You people are reaching for the stars.
Dude. I've posted many times(with links to studies) that show their are cultural links between Central/West Africa and Ancient Egypt.(Which would give peoples of West African descent just as much right to recognize Ancient Egyptian culture as Northern Europeans do for Greco Roman culture) The whole point of this thread was "supposedly" to understand why Afrocentric people (in referece to African Americans) claim Ancient Egypt as their history. The point I've made over and over is that the same could be said of Northern Europeans in relation to Greco Roman culture. Your retort(which I showed was an invalid argument) was that "due to assimilation of Northern European tribes that adopted Roman customs from being conquered, gives privileges to all Europeans to a Greco Roman culture/identity." My point still stands. "Assimilation" is not the same as "Conception". People of Central and West African descent have as much right to relate to Ancient Egyptian culture as Northern Europeans relate to Greco Roman culture.
No they don't. West Africans have never adopted any Ancient Egyptian political system or any Egyptian intellectual or literary tradition. Meanwhile, modern western societies are based on ancient greco-roman political systems, intellectual traditions, literary traditions, etc.
No they don't. West Africans have never adopted any Ancient Egyptian political system or any Egyptian intellectual or literary tradition. Meanwhile, modern western societies are based on ancient greco-roman political systems, intellectual traditions, literary traditions, etc.
Go back and read more of my posts. I've already had this discussion with cahibatches. Don't want to keep repeating the same thing ad nauseum.
No they don't. West Africans have never adopted any Ancient Egyptian political system or any Egyptian intellectual or literary tradition. Meanwhile, modern western societies are based on ancient greco-roman political systems, intellectual traditions, literary traditions, etc.
I believe it's already been established this was a flame thread. If you want to contribute something positive and speak about the history and culture of West Africa that'd be great. If not, then we have nothing to talk about. You're just rehashing old arguments that have already been discussed.
No modern linguist takes cheikh anta diop's lexical comparisons seriously. Egyptians spoke an extinct language from the Afro-Asiatic language phylum which emerged from Northeastern Africa and only came into contact with the West via Berber and Chadic speakers; not Egyptian. West Africans themselves are overwhelmingly Niger-Congo speakers, a language phylum which formed in West Africa; not in Egypt.
Therefore, there is no linguistic continuity between West/Central Africa and Egypt.
There is no established continuity in the architecture of these places. Ethiopia got its foreign architectural influence mostly from ancient Yemen and later Greece and Byzantium. Mali was a Medieval civilization who got its architectural influence from indigenous sources and some from Islam; not Ancient Egypt. Zimbabwe as another post-antiquity civilization that probably had no clue about any ancient Egypt until modern times.
Again, no evidence provided that explicitly states that any similarity of any objects found in any of these regions is a result of any direct cultural influence. They don't even care to explain how such influence could have occurred. There is no archaeological evidence of any contacts in Africa between ancient Egypt and any place outside of the Nile Valley.
Neither you or anyone else has cared to give a scenario where any such situation could have occurred that is accordant with archaeological evidence.
I haven't seen any evidence that the kingdoms/empires of the northeast or those in West Africa were matriarchies. They were all mostly headed by men, developed and maintained by men, with the most power almost always left in the hands of men, just like anywhere else in the world. Women may have had more liberties than in other societies, but they were still not matriarchal in organization.
Also, nowhere in here does this source demonstrate how and when any cultural influences took place. There is no evidence that any Yoruba or Asante knew about any ancient Egyptians before the modern era. Timbuktu scholars knew more about Ancient Greek philosophy than any Egyptian one, if they knew of any at all.
No it doesn't. When did Egyptians ever refer to themselves as Negroes?
None of this last segment says anything about relation between Western Africa and Northeastern Africa.
None of this stuff speaks to any West African/Egyptian relationship. You people are reaching for the stars.
I've cited many works that support my argument. You quoted the one source and skipped over at least 5-7 others that speaks on the origins of Ancient Egyptian history and culture. They're their for you to read.
No modern linguist takes cheikh anta diop's lexical comparisons seriously. Egyptians spoke an extinct language from the Afro-Asiatic language phylum which emerged from Northeastern Africa and only came into contact with the West via Berber and Chadic speakers; not Egyptian. West Africans themselves are overwhelmingly Niger-Congo speakers, a language phylum which formed in West Africa; not in Egypt.
Therefore, there is no linguistic continuity between West/Central Africa and Egypt.
There is no established continuity in the architecture of these places. Ethiopia got its foreign architectural influence mostly from ancient Yemen and later Greece and Byzantium. Mali was a Medieval civilization who got its architectural influence from indigenous sources and some from Islam; not Ancient Egypt. Zimbabwe as another post-antiquity civilization that probably had no clue about any ancient Egypt until modern times.
Again, no evidence provided that explicitly states that any similarity of any objects found in any of these regions is a result of any direct cultural influence. They don't even care to explain how such influence could have occurred. There is no archaeological evidence of any contacts in Africa between ancient Egypt and any place outside of the Nile Valley.
Neither you or anyone else has cared to give a scenario where any such situation could have occurred that is accordant with archaeological evidence.
I haven't seen any evidence that the kingdoms/empires of the northeast or those in West Africa were matriarchies. They were all mostly headed by men, developed and maintained by men, with the most power almost always left in the hands of men, just like anywhere else in the world. Women may have had more liberties than in other societies, but they were still not matriarchal in organization.
Also, nowhere in here does this source demonstrate how and when any cultural influences took place. There is no evidence that any Yoruba or Asante knew about any ancient Egyptians before the modern era. Timbuktu scholars knew more about Ancient Greek philosophy than any Egyptian one, if they knew of any at all.
No it doesn't. When did Egyptians ever refer to themselves as Negroes?
None of this last segment says anything about relation between Western Africa and Northeastern Africa.
None of this stuff speaks to any West African/Egyptian relationship. You people are reaching for the stars.
I will make a deal with you to keep this thread going and revive it on a positive note.
We talked earlier about what I have read...but you dwarf my knowledge. Tell me what I have NOT read?
Let us transform this thread. Tell me what sources to go out and get about West Africa and West Central Africa, and I will go out and read them. We will talk about them further when I am done and those who want to learn can, and those who don't do not have to.
I think you see and already know that the people we are attempting to debate with are not simply ignorant of the truth...they are actively turning a blind eye.
This thread which I hoped would be facilitating, had turned out to be exhausting and demoralizing. Lets revive it, you and me.
cachibatches, while I don’t agree with what you say about Ancient Egypt, and I’m disappointed in your dismissal of the evidence and opinions of myself and others here, I think we had enough arguing and neither of us is going to change our mind. Anyways, I’m always eager to share my knowledge of (West) African history. Like I said, my interest lies in medieval history of African states south of the Sahara, and not really Egypt.
For starters, here are some recommended books on West Africa. I’ve read them and they are a few of my favorites:
cachibatches, while I don’t agree with what you say about Ancient Egypt, and I’m disappointed in your dismissal of the evidence and opinions of myself and others here, I think we had enough arguing and neither of us is going to change our mind. Anyways, I’m always eager to share my knowledge of (West) African history. Like I said, my interest lies in medieval history of African states south of the Sahara, and not really Egypt.
For starters, here are some recommended books on West Africa. I’ve read them and they are a few of my favorites:
But there is no evidence for a connection. The "evidences" being put up are astonishingly thing, superficial, incorrect and co-incidental. A few loan words are broad concepts such as "divine kingship" are not evidences of a connection. We have been over that a hundred times in this thread and that is not going to change at all.
I am done arguing it. From here on in we are going to get this thing back and show appreciation for west Africa.
I believe it's already been established this was a flame thread. If you want to contribute something positive and speak about the history and culture of West Africa that'd be great. If not, then we have nothing to talk about. You're just rehashing old arguments that have already been discussed.
ignore bakari neferu. he was on [domain blocked due to spam] some time ago with his same hate and ignorant diatribe. he has no sources to back up the mess he is talking about.
JUST IGNORE HIM or it.
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