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From an ethical standpoint do you feel it is unethical to not reveal your unbelief?
I suppose it depends. In serious personal interrelationships, I think you must. It's a pretty significant factor. Professionally, I'm not so sure. I'm reminded of Russell saying that most (scientists? academics? politicians?) will say "in their cups" - in other words, among close friends, when they're drinking - that they really are not believers. But, he adds, something like, but if you admit to believe things outside the "prevailing orthodoxy," your income may be affected, other wives will "fight shy" of your wife, and so on.
And I would add, it's one thing for me to be truthful to my friends from university, but quite another to fly the flag of atheism in the conservative community where I teach. I'd be shunned. It's happened before because of AR (Animal Rights) activism, and it is not fun.
From an ethical standpoint do you feel it is unethical to not reveal your unbelief?
I suppose it depends. In serious personal interrelationships, I think you must. It's a pretty significant factor. Professionally, I'm not so sure. I'm reminded of Russell saying that most (scientists? academics? politicians?) will say "in their cups" - in other words, among close friends, when they're drinking - that they really are not believers. But, he adds, something like, but if you admit to believe things outside the "prevailing orthodoxy," your income may be affected, other wives will "fight shy" of your wife, and so on.
And I would add, it's one thing for me to be truthful to my friends from university, but quite another to fly the flag of atheism in the conservative community where I teach. I'd be shunned. It's happened before because of AR (Animal Rights) activism, and it is not fun.
I first realized that I was an atheist when I was 13. I told my closest friends and family, and resisted going to church. But that was 1961, and openly avowed atheists were hard to find in 1961. I didn't walk around with a "God is nonsense, I'm an atheist" sign on. That would have been exhausting, and somewhat dangerous. So I carefully picked my battles over the years.
Today atheists are common. But one should still pick their battles carefully. Don't ruin all your relationships. Even today, I don't walk around with a "God is nonsense, I'm an atheist" sign on. But if the subject comes up, I am pretty open in my rejection of religion. And I am capable of laying out in extreme detail just why I have reached that conclusion.
It's a perfect example of Relative morality. While ideally, we rationalists, atheists and Calvin -condemmed no-hopers would want to tell it straight, the most obviously correct method is Not to announce it the moment you get into a social situation. It's a bit more of an embarrassment -wriggle, but sometimes one feels they just have to cover up the Offensive truth. I would be the last to point the finger and roar: "You should have told them, straight!"
I first realized that I was an atheist when I was 13. I told my closest friends and family, and resisted going to church. But that was 1961, and openly avowed atheists were hard to find in 1961. I didn't walk around with a "God is nonsense, I'm an atheist" sign on. That would have been exhausting, and somewhat dangerous. So I carefully picked my battles over the years.
Today atheists are common. But one should still pick their battles carefully. Don't ruin all your relationships. Even today, I don't walk around with a "God is nonsense, I'm an atheist" sign on. But if the subject comes up, I am pretty open in my rejection of religion. And I am capable of laying out in extreme detail just why I have reached that conclusion.
Being shunned by people socially, or having people avoid you or your professional services, is painful, often subtle, and can lead to personal and professional failure. Like my thread on
. .this concern is usually not mentioned in atheist books -- maybe because the books I listed are written by academics at great universities where liberalism holds sway. Easy for them, not always easy for most of us who are unwilling to martyr themselves for the cause. The cause is nobel, to be sure, but it doesn't seem quite so nobel when your income goes down.
I'm not saying the alternative is to pretend to a fake piety; that's rather despicable.
Being shunned by people socially, or having people avoid you or your professional services, is painful, often subtle, and can lead to personal and professional failure. Like my thread on
. .this concern is usually not mentioned in atheist books -- maybe because the books I listed are written by academics at great universities where liberalism holds sway. Easy for them, not always easy for most of us who are unwilling to martyr themselves for the cause. The cause is nobel, to be sure, but it doesn't seem quite so nobel when your income goes down.
I'm not saying the alternative is to pretend to a fake piety; that's rather despicable.
It's not dishonest not to bring up the subject if the subject hasn't been raised. When the subject HAS been raised... well, one must pick one's own battles.
Being shunned by people socially, or having people avoid you or your professional services, is painful, often subtle, and can lead to personal and professional failure. Like my thread on
. .this concern is usually not mentioned in atheist books -- maybe because the books I listed are written by academics at great universities where liberalism holds sway. Easy for them, not always easy for most of us who are unwilling to martyr themselves for the cause. The cause is nobel, to be sure, but it doesn't seem quite so nobel when your income goes down.
I'm not saying the alternative is to pretend to a fake piety; that's rather despicable.
If you're that concerned about your <<bleep>> income, well, that's your problem, I guess. I play poker for a living so I don't have to live a constant face-saving membership-in-the-business-community-preserving lie, except where I must lie as part of that 'occupation', heh. Personally, I don't care that much about money; it seems you feel otherwise.
It's 'noble', not 'nobel'. Speaking of ethics, when considering the ethics of correcting the errors of others, it seems fair to draw the line at multiple mistakes of the same kind, no, to protect against the possibility of an accidental mistake the first time around? Wait for evidence of a pattern first...except of course in cases that are truly 'important', where even the possibility of the first accident must be minimized to the greatest extent possible. Ethics--so complicated and arbitrary!
Last edited by mensaguy; 09-28-2018 at 05:01 PM..
Reason: Unacceptable language. Hope that doesn't happen again.
There is a reason why they say not to discuss religion or politics. Personally, it's no one's business what I think about either subject.
I discuss religion all the time with certain people and have for years. It used to be a regular topic in our workplace, which could be a big no-no in some, but it was a pretty diverse bunch and we were curious about one another's ways.
There are some people, however, with whom I would not discuss religion at all, and there are very, very few people with whom I will discuss politics, mostly because I just can't stand politics or politicians and don't want to discuss them.
From an ethical standpoint do you feel it is unethical to not reveal your unbelief?
This is a question that I have found myself struggling with more and more in recent years.
During my employment life I kept my nonbelief under wraps but I honestly, I don't think the subject ever came up in the workplace. Now that I'm retired I don't have that particular consideration anymore.
Five years ago my son married into a family of Catholics who are active churchgoers; Mass every Sunday and 'holy day', several of them sing in the choir and so on. My son was raised religion-free and likes it that way. I have no idea how much or little any of my DIL's family know about that. I am sure they just assume that I'm at least a Christian because, well, people tend to assume things, LOL. Obviously I'm the recipient of religious references, wishes, etc. because they have no idea that I don't agree with or relate to those things. I either smile noncomittally or change the subject immediately if I can.
But it has bothered me more and more that these people who now consider me "part of their family", because of my son, assume that I'm something I'm not. I would prefer that they knew the truth and let the chips fall where they may as far as their opinion of me. On the other hand, my relationship with them is based on my son's relationship to them (by marriage) and there is a part of me that wonders if that might color (or raise questions about) their opinion of my son as well. I'm probably overthinking this, I know, LOL
I did tell one friend about my nonbelief last year and haven't heard from her since. Then again, we typically only touched base 2 or 3 times a year anyhow. I left a message on her voicemail in early July letting her know my grandchild was born (as per her request) and she never called back. I've hinted at my nonbelief to a longtime friend but stopped short of saying I'm an atheist; she asked me if the baby has been christened yet and I said "No, thank goodness, because that will cause a ruckus when I don't go because I'm not into the religion thing." So she may think I meant just "no church" rather than "no god."
The you-know-what will hit the fan in November because that's when the christening has just been scheduled for. I'm definitely not going to the church, but will probably stop in briefly at the buffet-style thing at a restaurant afterward although that's not my first preference. I will give a gift (of a 529 account) inside a non-religious blank card written "to" the baby and will regard it in my own mind as an Early Xmas Present, lol.
So my non-attendance at the christening will start to give people some clues and I'm sure I'll be asked about it at the restaurant. I don't plan to lie by feigning illness or anything. I will be seeing the same group at Thanksgiving two weeks later and so may as well get the "coming out party" over with at that point anyhow, lol
IMHO going to the christening or to any future religious ceremonies involving my granddaughter would be unethical and hypocritical. My DIL's family will have to be aware of it eventually and I feel more and more that it should be sooner rather than later.
This is a question that I have found myself struggling with more and more in recent years.
During my employment life I kept my nonbelief under wraps but I honestly, I don't think the subject ever came up in the workplace. Now that I'm retired I don't have that particular consideration anymore.
Five years ago my son married into a family of Catholics who are active churchgoers; Mass every Sunday and 'holy day', several of them sing in the choir and so on. My son was raised religion-free and likes it that way. I have no idea how much or little any of my DIL's family know about that. I am sure they just assume that I'm at least a Christian because, well, people tend to assume things, LOL. Obviously I'm the recipient of religious references, wishes, etc. because they have no idea that I don't agree with or relate to those things. I either smile noncomittally or change the subject immediately if I can.
But it has bothered me more and more that these people who now consider me "part of their family", because of my son, assume that I'm something I'm not. I would prefer that they knew the truth and let the chips fall where they may as far as their opinion of me. On the other hand, my relationship with them is based on my son's relationship to them (by marriage) and there is a part of me that wonders if that might color (or raise questions about) their opinion of my son as well. I'm probably overthinking this, I know, LOL
I did tell one friend about my nonbelief last year and haven't heard from her since. Then again, we typically only touched base 2 or 3 times a year anyhow. I left a message on her voicemail in early July letting her know my grandchild was born (as per her request) and she never called back. I've hinted at my nonbelief to a longtime friend but stopped short of saying I'm an atheist; she asked me if the baby has been christened yet and I said "No, thank goodness, because that will cause a ruckus when I don't go because I'm not into the religion thing." So she may think I meant just "no church" rather than "no god."
The you-know-what will hit the fan in November because that's when the christening has just been scheduled for. I'm definitely not going to the church, but will probably stop in briefly at the buffet-style thing at a restaurant afterward although that's not my first preference. I will give a gift (of a 529 account) inside a non-religious blank card written "to" the baby and will regard it in my own mind as an Early Xmas Present, lol.
So my non-attendance at the christening will start to give people some clues and I'm sure I'll be asked about it at the restaurant. I don't plan to lie by feigning illness or anything. I will be seeing the same group at Thanksgiving two weeks later and so may as well get the "coming out party" over with at that point anyhow, lol
IMHO going to the christening or to any future religious ceremonies involving my granddaughter would be unethical and hypocritical. My DIL's family will have to be aware of it eventually and I feel more and more that it should be sooner rather than later.
For someone who has reached retirement age, you seem inordinately self-centered. What does it cost you to let others have their beliefs and practices without having to contend with your OVERT disagreement or rejection??? What harm does it do to you to participate in attending practices you do not believe in or agree with? Do you care at all for your family? Do you care at all for their well-being and state of mind? Why would you want to upset them or hurt their feelings just to assuage your need to be true to your atheism? Grow up and get over yourself. No one needs to know what you really think. They just need to know you care about them.
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