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Atheism itself may not need to be justified, per se, but there must be justification for the conseequnces of both worldviews. Atheism cannot give account for innate human dignity, for example. If this is the logical outworking of atheism then there are some serious questions that need to be raised. In the same manner, a theistic worldview makes claims that need justification.
This post had me thinking and I was hoping to begin a discussion on dignity.
What I think is this:
Looking at any dictionary we can find the definition of dignity
The relevant one here is of course number one. Dignity for a person seems to be defined in relationship to what other people think of someone.
Well that's as far as I feel I need to go. Dignity seems to be the way we measure the worth of someone's personality in the same way that honour is a measure of someones trustworthiness. Strictly a social phenomenon, someone without dignity will do things which aren't seen as socially acceptable by others. Lack of dignity seems to point at being a failure in life and makes the person unattractive in many ways.
Without getting too deep into the complex interactions between people, I'd say that lacking an innate sense of dignity(that is an aversion towards doing something socially unacceptable) puts us in a higher position with others(be it for altruistic purposes or even mating) and thus has evolved over the millions of year into what it is now. To back up my point a bit more I'll say that dignity isn't just a human phenomenon and point to the animal rights which protect the dignity and prevent cruelty to animals.
Heck, we just need to read some Victorian age novels to see how the rich would be looked down upon as having no dignity by their peers if they mingled with the poor.
You don't think we can judge and determine dignified behaviour in ourselves? Is that what you're saying that it is always judged by other people's opinions?
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Dignity and ethics go hand in hand for me. A person who has great dignity also has great ethics. They are not the same thing but they are connected...."ethics" being the ability to do what is "right" regardlesss of personal gain or loss. A dignified person is a person who can hold his or her head high regardless of what others feel or think because he or she knows they are honorable. I don't think it matters what others feel or believe, it's a personal thing.
You don't think we can judge and determine dignified behaviour in ourselves? Is that what you're saying that it is always judged by other people's opinions?
We can and do, but just because i think i am a good person dosent mean i am one.
Take Hitler for instance, do you really think he thought of him self as a monster with no diginity?
We can and do, but just because i think i am a good person dosent mean i am one.
I doubt it is possible for any person to go through their whole life and be all good or all bad. There will always be times when people, even those that would consider themselves good people, do bad things. Just as even the most heinous of individuals are capable of good. Of course these things are generally judged by external opinion, I agree, but I still believe that there is also the capacity for a human being to correctly judge their own behaviour.
Quote:
Originally Posted by forkpower
Take Hitler for instance, do you really think he thought of him self as a monster with no diginity?
Agreed, but then I don't think that just because the sum total of Hitler's life as we judge it now in hindsight added up to him being what most people would consider a monsterous existence also means that he NEVER behaved in a dignified manner.
coos,
Thanks for the post. I think it's an important discussion as well. Let me start off by saying that we don't have to start off with semantics about the word dignity. Use "inherent value" or "axiomatic worth" or something else if dignity doesn't work for you. The point being that a humans have dignity inherent in their makeup, apart from actions they perform. Granted, poor choices and unruly behavior can make a person reputaion as "undignified" but that doesn't take away the inherent dignity of mankind.
There have been other thoughtful posts on this subject under another thread. One of the main points is that reciprocal moral behavior is beneficial in propogating the species, a point that is logical and I conceed. But the part I disagree with is is where humans are cosidered 'dignified' because other humans assign dignity to other humans. While this is honorable and right, it has nothing to do with innate-ness. If dignity is bestowed, if you will, from outside, then it isn't innate. Just so we have a working definition here, something is innatewhen it is inherent in the essential character of something (dictionary.com).
I don't know if you have heard of Peter Singer. I would quote some incredible things he has said but I don't think there would be an end to the verbal pollution coming from this man's mouth concerning the place of humans. I do think, however, that this man may be close to the pinnacle of thinking regarding how humans should be viewed when innate dignity is abolished.
don't know if you have heard of Peter Singer. I would quote some incredible things he has said but I don't think there would be an end to the verbal pollution coming from this man's mouth concerning the place of humans. I do think, however, that this man may be close to the pinnacle of thinking regarding how humans should be viewed when innate dignity is abolished.
Guess I better go hunt out that book of his on the bookshelf and have another look at it. Wasn't getting anything like that from the first few chapters then again I was using it as a sleep aid.
Guess I better go hunt out that book of his on the bookshelf and have another look at it. Wasn't getting anything like that from the first few chapters then again I was using it as a sleep aid.
What book of his are you reading? Using it as a sleep aid, huh? I usually try counting sheep or other livestock. Whatevr you do, don't count endangered species. you will run out.
What book of his are you reading? Using it as a sleep aid, huh? I usually try counting sheep or other livestock. Whatevr you do, don't count endangered species. you will run out.
I was reading Practical Ethics Second Edition but I usually only get a few pages in and I doze off. In theory it seemed like an interesting book but in reality, like so many of the books on my shelf, it becomes a snooze fest. Perhaps I need to work on my concentration skills?
I feel judged by a lot of people, so go to great lengths lying my head off about being better then they are. To back it up, I always show proof.
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