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OMG,... This is turning into South Florida with the tolls. All the State has to do is start making a killer profit out of these scam "Tolls" and in a few years they will have one every five miles. If this goes uncontested, tolls will take over GA's highways. Its not about the commute nor helping traffic, its purely State proffit.
I don't understand why everyone hates these. If you don't like them, don't use them- it just makes more room for me. I'll gladly pay a few bucks when I'm in a hurry to avoid traffic. I doubt the HOT lanes on 75 will fill up since they're added lanes, not converted.
So I take it that this will reduce the chance of Marta going up I75 since there will be less space to build a track? People from Kennesaw will now be able to drive downtown faster in the short term. This will lead to more demand in the northern NW arc of our suburbs. This increase in development and population will bring more cars and traffic issues which will only create more peak rush hour problems. I wish they could see the future and just plan for it with other transit opportunities.
Im sure the realtors and subdivision developers are already using this toll road enhancement as a way to sell or build more home farther and farther away from our jobs centers in the Perimeter, Cumberland, Buckhead, Midtown, and Downtown areas. If I were you id move now closer to work since it wont ever become an easier commute. Move now before its even built to ride the waive of housing appreciation ITP when the traffic is even worse than now and demand increase ITP.
I don't understand why everyone hates these. If you don't like them, don't use them- it just makes more room for me. I'll gladly pay a few bucks when I'm in a hurry to avoid traffic. I doubt the HOT lanes on 75 will fill up since they're added lanes, not converted.
Because it's money they're throwing at the rubber and asphalt industry that ultimately won't amount to anything but corporate charity.
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Originally Posted by BackInATL2011
So I take it that this will reduce the chance of Marta going up I75 since there will be less space to build a track? People from Kennesaw will now be able to drive downtown faster in the short term. This will lead to more demand in the northern NW arc of our suburbs. This increase in development and population will bring more cars and traffic issues which will only create more peak rush hour problems. I wish they could see the future and just plan for it with other transit opportunities.
MARTA was never going to run any farther than Cumberland anyways, and the light rail that keeps getting floated would follow Cobb Parkway more than I-75. But yes, sadly this will just reduce the chances of getting any kind of commuter rail up that corridor in the future.
Quote:
Im sure the realtors and subdivision developers are already using this toll road enhancement as a way to sell or build more home farther and farther away from our jobs centers in the Perimeter, Cumberland, Buckhead, Midtown, and Downtown areas. If I were you id move now closer to work since it wont ever become an easier commute. Move now before its even built to ride the waive of housing appreciation ITP when the traffic is even worse than now and demand increase ITP.
Yep, roads bring sprawl while transit does not, or at least not nearly as much.
why dont enough people stand up to the state, and tell them NO.
or make them put it to a vote.
A large majority of voters did stand up to the state and told them "NO" when the idea of funding relatively very-modest (but somewhat misguided) upgrades and expansions of the transportation network with a sales tax increase was overwhelmingly rejected by voters in the ill-fated 2012 T-SPLOST referendum.
Since voters overwhelmingly said "NO" to funding the growing needs of the transportation network with regional sales tax increases, one of the very-few ways remaining to fund transportation needs is with user fees (backed of course with heavy borrowing in the case of tolled managed lanes).
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Originally Posted by Rolyfran
OMG,... This is turning into South Florida with the tolls. All the State has to do is start making a killer profit out of these scam "Tolls" and in a few years they will have one every five miles....Its not about the commute nor helping traffic, its purely State proffit.
In regards to tolled managed lanes, the state will likely never make a profit as the tolls are setup to restrict the amount of traffic that uses the lanes during peak traffic periods so that traffic always keeps moving in the lanes at an average of at-least 45 miles-per-hour.
But the state will likely collect just enough revenue from the tolls to pay back the long-term loans that they had to get (from the builders and the Federal Government) to build and convert the lanes (...with the exception of the first section of the I-85 Northeast HOT Lanes whose conversion was paid for with a $110 million grant from the Feds that does not have to be repaid).
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Originally Posted by Rolyfran
If this goes uncontested, tolls will take over GA's highways.
That's actually the plan over the long-term, not only in Georgia, but also all around the country, particularly throughout the most-populated parts of the U.S. as user fee-financing (distance-based tolls on major roads and distance-based fares on transit) is viewed as a much more effective way of funding transportation needs in heavily-populated and fast-growing parts of the nation where transportation needs keep growing despite shrinking funding from traditional sources (fuel taxes and heavy borrowing).
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Originally Posted by OneTrickNet
I don't understand why everyone hates these. If you don't like them, don't use them- it just makes more room for me. I'll gladly pay a few bucks when I'm in a hurry to avoid traffic.
People hate toll lanes and toll lanes because the government has intentionally fueled the illusion that roads are 'free' (hence, the very-misleading name FREEways) and that existing fuel taxes (which oil companies and the government intentionally hide inside of the price of gas so that drivers cannot see how much of the price of fuel is taxes) completely cover the cost of road construction and maintenance.
(..Like when you hear people saying "My taxes paid for this road!" when in actuality tax revenues only cover a rapidly-shrinking part of the cost of constructing and maintaining the road network...the rest of the cost of constructing and maintaining the road network is paid for with heavy borrowing from domestic and foreign sources outside of the government because of fuel taxes that have not been adjusted for inflation in decades.)
Because drivers have been intentionally mislead by the government into thinking that the roads are either 'free' (or are as close to as free as one can get) and that virtually-hidden existing fuel taxes fully cover the costs of maintaining the road network, drivers get very-upset when they suddenly have to directly pay the full and/or true cost of using something that they've been intentionally mislead into thinking was 'free' or very low-cost.
Because fuel taxes have not been adjusted for inflation to cover 100% of the cost of constructing and maintaining the road network (Federal fuel taxes have not been increased since 1993, while Georgia fuel taxes have not been increased in over 30 years when the state had roughly half the population and transportation needs that it has today, particularly in the Atlanta region which had roughly a third of the population and transportation needs that it has today), and because politicians don't want to accused of raising taxes (and because politicians currently in office would likely be accused of raising taxes if the state and federal levels of government increased the fuel tax to much more adequately cover the cost of maintaining the road network), both state and federal levels of government have had to borrow increasingly-heavy amounts of revenues from external sources (both domestic and foreign) to maintain the road network.
Because increasingly heavy borrowing of revenues is not financially (or politically) sustainable over the long-term, user fee-financing (both in-part and in-full) is a transportation funding concept that is becoming increasingly-attractive to governments (particularly at the state level in the nearer-term, but also at the federal level over the long-term as it is the Feds who are mandating the conversion of untolled carpool lanes to tolled carpool and tolled managed lanes across the nation).
Quote:
Originally Posted by OneTrickNet
I doubt the HOT lanes on 75 will fill up since they're added lanes, not converted.
You are very-correct as not only will the tolled managed lanes on Interstates 75 and 575 (not officially HOT lanes as carpoolers will have to pay to use the I-75/I-575 toll lanes) not fill up because they are added capacity (NOT the conversion of an existing untolled carpool lane like was done on I-85 NE), but the new tolled managed lanes on Interstates 75 and 575 also will not fill up because they will have uncapped variable tolls that will increase to as high of a level as will be needed to make sure that the lanes keep moving at an average speed of no less than 45 miles-per-hour during.
The uncapped variable tolls on the I-75/I-575 reversible managed lanes means that there is no limit to how high the price of the tolls will rise to keep the lanes moving at an average speed of 45 m.p.h. (...on the S.R. 91 managed lanes in Orange County in Southern California, it already costs as much as nearly $1.00 per-mile to ride the entire 10-mile length of the managed lanes during rush hour on Friday afternoon/evening when traffic is heavier than it is at any other time on the entire road).
...That means that with a population and traffic count that is continuing to grow (often quickly and explosively) in the I-75/I-575 Northwest Corridor it is very-conceivable that it could one day cost as much as $15 or even $20 one-way to ride the entire length of the lanes during the most-congested parts of the rush hour.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BackInATL2011
So I take it that this will reduce the chance of Marta going up I75 since there will be less space to build a track? People from Kennesaw will now be able to drive downtown faster in the short term. This will lead to more demand in the northern NW arc of our suburbs. This increase in development and population will bring more cars and traffic issues which will only create more peak rush hour problems. I wish they could see the future and just plan for it with other transit opportunities.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattCW
MARTA was never going to run any farther than Cumberland anyways, and the light rail that keeps getting floated would follow Cobb Parkway more than I-75. But yes, sadly this will just reduce the chances of getting any kind of commuter rail up that corridor in the future.
The construction of the tolled reversible managed lanes on Interstates 75 and 575 outside of I-285 does not reduce the chance of passenger rail transit being extended into the I-75/I-575 Cobb/Cherokee Northwest Corridor as there will still be a growing and pressing need for high-capacity transit options (including passenger rail transit) in that fast-growing and increasingly-congested corridor.
The need for high-capacity transit in and along a corridor with reversible managed lanes is something that has been aptly demonstrated in the I-95 Corridor south of and outside the I-495 Capital Beltway in the fast-growing Northern Virginia section of the Greater Washington D.C. region where 2 reversible HOV carpool lanes have for more than 20 years existed in and along the same Outside-the-Beltway corridor along I-95 South as Virginia Railway Express regional commuter rail service and partial D.C. Metro heavy rail service (which operates between Downtown Washington D.C. and Springfield, Virginia, a just Outside-the-Beltway suburb near the busy I-95/I-495/I-395 Springfield Interchange in Northern Virginia that is very-similar in nature to the Cumberland/Galleria area of Metro Atlanta that lies both just inside and just outside of the I-285 Perimeter at the busy I-75/I-285 Cobb Cloverleaf Interchange).
While new tolled reversible managed lanes are being built on Interstates 75 and 575 outside of the I-285 Perimeter in Northwest Metro Atlanta, the 2 existing reversible HOV-2 carpool lanes on I-95 are being expanded to 3 reversible lanes and converted to HOT/HOV-3 lanes because of the increasingly-heavy and severe peak-hour (not just rush-hour) traffic on I-95 in Northern Virginia outside of the I-495 Capital Beltway.
Along with the expansion and conversion of the 2 existing reversible HOV-2 carpool lanes on I-95 South to 3 reversible HOT/HOV-3 lanes, there is also talk of increasing the frequency of Virginia Railway Express commuter trains between Downtown Washington and Fredricksburg in exurban Northern Virginia, and there is also talk of expanding DC Metro heavy rail service south from its current southern terminus at Springfield so that 3 new DC Metro heavy rail stops are built at Newington, Lorton (northern terminus of the popular Amtrak Autotrain service which transports families and their vehicles between Northern Virginia and Central Florida) and Woodbridge along a portion of existing rail right-of-way where Virginia Railway Express commuter trains and Amtrak interstate passenger trains already operate at high-frequencies.
The construction of 2 tolled managed lanes along Interstates 75 & 575 through Cobb and Cherokee counties will by no means negate the need for increased transit options through the I-75/I-575 NW OTP corridor.
The construction of the 2 reversible toll lanes on I-75/I-575 is proceeding because it is a transportation project that has been on the drawing board in various forms for close to 30 years and because it is the ONLY project that is even remotely close to being completed.
The State of Georgia had originally intended to add carpool lanes to I-75 NW OTP (between I-285 and I-575) when they widened the road as part of the then-massive 'Freeing-the-Freeways' widening project of the 1980's and early '90's.
But carpool lanes were never added to I-75 Northwest OTP for multiple reasons, largely because of extreme skepticism about (and a degree of ideological opposition to) the idea of government-encouraged carpooling from a much more politically, socially and culturally conservative and libertarian populace in the I-75 NW OTP corridor when the road was widened and expanded in the '80's and early '90's.
The state started to again seriously consider putting carpool lanes on I-75 NW OTP after a post-Olympics population growth spurt made Northside freeway traffic much worse than anyone imagined it would be, but by the time that the state had again started to consider putting carpool lanes on I-75, the existing HOV-2 carpool lane network had started filling up with traffic (giving birth to the then-brand new idea of tolling new and existing carpool lanes); the idea of converting the existing inside lanes on I-75 NW OTP to HOV-2 carpool lanes (which is what the inside lanes of I-75 were originally intended for) was a total non-starter politically through a very-conservative and libertarian Cobb County (where a very-conservative and libertarian populace would have raised Hell-on-Earth if an existing lane on each direction of I-75 would have been taken for carpools, a concept that staunch social conservatives and libertarians were then very-skeptical about); and all of the state's political and financial resources had become almost totally and completely preoccupied with pushing the VERY ill-fated proposal to build an Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc highway around the outer reaches of the metro area.
At the behest of Governor Deal in late 2011, the State of Georgia backed out of the earlier P3 (public-private partnership) financed incarnation of the I-75/I-575 NW Corridor tolled managed lanes because of how the non-complete clause in the deal would have contractually prevented the state from making critically-needed improvements to parallel state-owned and state-maintained right-of-ways (like US 41 Cobb Parkway which has been targeted for bus rapid transit and light rapid transit service and conversion to a super-arterial road; AND the state-owned CSX-leased Western & Atlantic Railroad right-of-way which has been targeted for the eventual implementation of regional commuter rail and regional heavy rail service) for a period of between 50-70 years unless the state paid a huge financial penalty to the private financing partner (...a huge financial penalty of somewhere in the neighborhood of $300 million in 2013 dollars).
The current incarnation of the I-75/I-575 NW Corridor tolled managed lanes project is proof that the State of Georgia sees the increasingly-pressing need for transportation improvements in that very fast-growing and increasingly severely-congested corridor beyond just reversible toll lanes as there is no contractually and legally-binding non-compete clause that prevents the state from making transportation improvements and upgrades along parallel state-owned right-of-ways like US 41 Cobb Pkwy and the Western & Atlantic Railroad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BackInATL2011
Im sure the realtors and subdivision developers are already using this toll road enhancement as a way to sell or build more home farther and farther away from our jobs centers in the Perimeter, Cumberland, Buckhead, Midtown, and Downtown areas. If I were you id move now closer to work since it wont ever become an easier commute. Move now before its even built to ride the waive of housing appreciation ITP when the traffic is even worse than now and demand increase ITP.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattCW
Yep, roads bring sprawl while transit does not, or at least not nearly as much.
These are excellent points as the I-75/I-575 tolled managed lanes are indeed being used as a tool to market the I-75/I-575 anchored Northwest Corridor to recruit business and residential relocations and newcomers.
MattCW also has an excellent point that transit does not bring as much sprawl as roads, though transit can and sometimes does spark a denser-type (or sometimes even a not-so-dense form) of sprawl in outlying areas of major metro regions as commuters can drive part of their commute to the nearest train station and ride transit the rest of the way to their destination.
Driving part of a daily commute to and from a passenger rail transit station is often the case on the outer fringes of major metro areas with extensive transit networks where development patterns are much more sparse than they are closer to the urban core.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OneTrickNet
I don't understand why everyone hates these. If you don't like them, don't use them- it just makes more room for me. I'll gladly pay a few bucks when I'm in a hurry to avoid traffic. I doubt the HOT lanes on 75 will fill up since they're added lanes, not converted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattCW
Because it's money they're throwing at the rubber and asphalt industry that ultimately won't amount to anything but corporate charity.
Unfortunately, that is so very true as the road construction lobby still wields a tremendous, if not overwhelming amount of weight in state legislative politics in Georgia and most other states.
Though, in a somewhat surprising development, because of Metro Atlanta's attention-grabbing explosive population growth statistics over the past 3 decades, the RAIL TRANSIT industry has been gaining more and more political clout in Georgia politics as evidenced by the dust-up over Georgia Statehouse Speaker David Ralston's all-expenses-paid $17,000 family trip to Europe a few years back.
...Speaker Ralston's trip to Europe was paid for by a German trainmaker who desperately wants to get into the fast-growing North Georgia market, a market which has the attention of other transit vehicle producers (domestic and foreign) because of the explosive population growth figures of the transit-underserved Atlanta region and the presence of the world's busiest airport.
OMG,... This is turning into South Florida with the tolls. All the State has to do is start making a killer profit out of these scam "Tolls" and in a few years they will have one every five miles. If this goes uncontested, tolls will take over GA's highways. Its not about the commute nor helping traffic, its purely State proffit.
No it's not. We have an optional toll lane not a mandatory toll rd
Except that's a fallacy. Adding normal lanes never reduces traffic so why should adding lanes that exclude a lot of people?
Logic dictates that it has to reduce traffic just like adding train cars would reduce the number of people per car. Even if more people choose to use I-75 with the extra lanes that means less cars somewhere else.
Logic dictates that it has to reduce traffic just like adding train cars would reduce the number of people per car. Even if more people choose to use I-75 with the extra lanes that means less cars somewhere else.
But its such a short term mentality. The whole idea is to have less cars in general. Not just less cars somewhere else since our population keeps growing. So when someone says, adding lanes doesn't work they mean its never a long term fix and the additional lanes aren't usually for the whole highway so then you have bottle neck issues.
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