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This has been re-hased over and over in lots of threads if you do a search you can find many responses and counter responses. Quick and dirty is: Falcons deal is not great and I prefer they got $0, but not as bad as it is just existing funds that were maintaining the Dome. CoA got a new stadium for the cost of maintaining the Dome. Negotiations had been going on for months because of what the Braves were asking for, but yes, they backed out in the middle of negotiations and it was a surprise.
I am not sure that we are getting the new stadium that cheaply. Were we using the hotel tax to maintain the dome? How are we going to maintain the new stadium in the future if we are using the hotel tax to build it?
Those children in that area need to have the sense of what it feels like when a college/university is right across the street, and to see college students in the grocery stores, etc. nearby. For most of those children, they may have NEVER met anyone who has gone to college and may think it is completely unattainable.
Great thought. People can be so isolated, yet geographically close together. Segregating poverty doesn't do anyone any good.
I, for one, am excited about what comes next (isn't the Atlanta way?). I'm looking forward to the redevelopment of Turner Field and the lack of traffic on game nights as well as the new Falcons stadium and MLS expansion team. I think its great that we are getting in on the soccer thing. Imagine if ATL hosted the World Cup.
I am not sure that we are getting the new stadium that cheaply. Were we using the hotel tax to maintain the dome? How are we going to maintain the new stadium in the future if we are using the hotel tax to build it?
Yes, this represents a no change. They are using existing channels of funding. Funding dictated by the legislature. They city could not have changed it themselves.
We need to remember two things:
1) As any infrastructure gets older it's repairs and upkeep will become more costly
2) The Falcons are paying for a majority of the project and putting up a significant amount of investment privately.
Building a new stadium will take away some of the short-term maintenance costs of the stadium. Long-term the tax, as it is now, keeps getting funded to the stadium.
Now this gets to be more complex. There were many other parts to the Falcons deal (in my personal view is beneficial to both the GWCC and the Falcons).
The Falcons will continue to collect the stadium portion of the tax already earmarked for the GA Dome, but they are taking all of the financial risk and operating costs of the new facility.... costs that are currently on the public side with GWCC. The Falcons will then manage the stadium and be more open to finding other ways of making money from the facility (and helping pay its operations/maintenance). This deal if much more of a public-private partnership than it was before.
In comparison to what we know the Falcons deal was exceedingly better than the Braves deal. The Braves were also asking for really expensive transit infrastructure upgrades and they wanted to dictate development of the parking lots (public property) without competitively bidding on it themselves... this causes a huge ethical dilemma for the city that could result in many lawsuits (FYI, there is a similar lawsuit recently issued on the proposed Tyler Perry studios. It isn't quite the same, but it is similar in that another developer is claiming didn't get to competitively bid and was told his proposal wasn't possible ... low and behold... Tyler Perry moves in with talks.
In the case of Cobb... The Braves outright bought the property they want to redevelop themselves, so they can customize it. This is not the city's fault! The Braves have to play by the same rules in both places, but they would have faced a harder time outbidding other developers in Atlanta.
The Falcons deal was a continuation of the same tax, admittedly there is always an opportunity costs to the tax money not going elsewhere, but politically it was a tax controlled by the state and was unlikely to be changed. This money couldn't have been shifted by Reed or the city to other city projects or the Braves very easily and possibly could have lost the funding altogether if the state legislature got involved. Admittedly, the Falcons are the benefactor of a political 'lets not touch the issue' truce between the city and the state.
The Braves wanted to city to spend money it didn't have funding for and would have required bonds to be issued, which would prevent Reed from issuing bonds for needed infrastructure maintenance.
The Braves also were not willing to put as much private investment into the project as the Falcons were and the football stadium is also used for GWCC purposes that helps lure major conventions here (extra economic benefits to the city and hotels ... source of the tax revenue)
I also want to point out one thing... Reed was blind-sided. The Braves weren't exactly as open about their negotiations and they didn't work well themselves.
Arthur Blank is putting down much more investment and negotiated and gave into the city on many things. There was a two-way negotiation.
The Braves didn't tell the city about the Cobb offer and they asked for things the city legally and ethically couldn't give. When told of that barrier, the Braves blamed the city...rather than finding a way to mutually work together with the reality of those barriers.
Yes, this represents a no change. They are using existing channels of funding. Funding dictated by the legislature. They city could not have changed it themselves.
We need to remember two things:
1) As any infrastructure gets older it's repairs and upkeep will become more costly
2) The Falcons are paying for a majority of the project and putting up a significant amount of investment privately.
Building a new stadium will take away some of the short-term maintenance costs of the stadium. Long-term the tax, as it is now, keeps getting funded to the stadium.
Now this gets to be more complex. There were many other parts to the Falcons deal (in my personal view is beneficial to both the GWCC and the Falcons).
The Falcons will continue to collect the stadium portion of the tax already earmarked for the GA Dome, but they are taking all of the financial risk and operating costs of the new facility.... costs that are currently on the public side with GWCC. The Falcons will then manage the stadium and be more open to finding other ways of making money from the facility (and helping pay its operations/maintenance). This deal if much more of a public-private partnership than it was before.
In comparison to what we know the Falcons deal was exceedingly better than the Braves deal. The Braves were also asking for really expensive transit infrastructure upgrades and they wanted to dictate development of the parking lots (public property) without competitively bidding on it themselves... this causes a huge ethical dilemma for the city that could result in many lawsuits (FYI, there is a similar lawsuit recently issued on the proposed Tyler Perry studios. It isn't quite the same, but it is similar in that another developer is claiming didn't get to competitively bid and was told his proposal wasn't possible ... low and behold... Tyler Perry moves in with talks.
In the case of Cobb... The Braves outright bought the property they want to redevelop themselves, so they can customize it. This is not the city's fault! The Braves have to play by the same rules in both places, but they would have faced a harder time outbidding other developers in Atlanta.
The Falcons deal was a continuation of the same tax, admittedly there is always an opportunity costs to the tax money not going elsewhere, but politically it was a tax controlled by the state and was unlikely to be changed. This money couldn't have been shifted by Reed or the city to other city projects or the Braves very easily and possibly could have lost the funding altogether if the state legislature got involved. Admittedly, the Falcons are the benefactor of a political 'lets not touch the issue' truce between the city and the state.
The Braves wanted to city to spend money it didn't have funding for and would have required bonds to be issued, which would prevent Reed from issuing bonds for needed infrastructure maintenance.
The Braves also were not willing to put as much private investment into the project as the Falcons were and the football stadium is also used for GWCC purposes that helps lure major conventions here (extra economic benefits to the city and hotels ... source of the tax revenue)
I also want to point out one thing... Reed was blind-sided. The Braves weren't exactly as open about their negotiations and they didn't work well themselves.
Arthur Blank is putting down much more investment and negotiated and gave into the city on many things. There was a two-way negotiation.
The Braves didn't tell the city about the Cobb offer and they asked for things the city legally and ethically couldn't give. When told of that barrier, the Braves blamed the city...rather than finding a way to mutually work together with the reality of those barriers.
I think, in the end, Reed tried very hard to give the braves the land around the stadium if they would stay.
It would have been nice if they could have used the hotel tax to keep both teams. That would have been something to praise KR for doing.
I am excited to see what will go in there, but there will always be a hole in my heart for what we have lost.
It would have been nice if they could have used the hotel tax to keep both teams. That would have been something to praise KR for doing.
I know, but I fear two things. The tax couldn't support both and Reed wouldn't have had the power to reapportion the tax. Local taxation is tightly controlled by the state legislature. This includes the portion of the tax that supports the Georgia Dome through the state founded GWCC.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Michael
I am excited to see what will go in there, but there will always be a hole in my heart for what we have lost.
I agree and understand.
My great grandfather was a banker in Atlanta when it was far smaller and he went to watch the Crackers play on Ponce. He was on a citizens/chamber booster committee pushing for the building of Atlanta-Fulton County Stadium, so we could attract a pro-baseball team here. He has a picture of the stadium half painted taken from the air right after it was built.
It was sad to see it go, but the upgrades and quality of the Ted made it worth it. At that time I told myself it was worth it and at least it was next door. The Ted is a great looking stadium that would fit in nicely to urban development projects right next to it.
The GSU proposal has given me some hope, I only hope their plans in the end can save as much as possible of the Olympic Stadium as a semi-historic structure for Atlanta in the future.
Yes, this represents a no change. They are using existing channels of funding. Funding dictated by the legislature. They city could not have changed it themselves.
We need to remember two things:
1) As any infrastructure gets older it's repairs and upkeep will become more costly
2) The Falcons are paying for a majority of the project and putting up a significant amount of investment privately.
Building a new stadium will take away some of the short-term maintenance costs of the stadium. Long-term the tax, as it is now, keeps getting funded to the stadium.
Now this gets to be more complex. There were many other parts to the Falcons deal (in my personal view is beneficial to both the GWCC and the Falcons).
The Falcons will continue to collect the stadium portion of the tax already earmarked for the GA Dome, but they are taking all of the financial risk and operating costs of the new facility.... costs that are currently on the public side with GWCC. The Falcons will then manage the stadium and be more open to finding other ways of making money from the facility (and helping pay its operations/maintenance). This deal if much more of a public-private partnership than it was before.
In comparison to what we know the Falcons deal was exceedingly better than the Braves deal. The Braves were also asking for really expensive transit infrastructure upgrades and they wanted to dictate development of the parking lots (public property) without competitively bidding on it themselves... this causes a huge ethical dilemma for the city that could result in many lawsuits (FYI, there is a similar lawsuit recently issued on the proposed Tyler Perry studios. It isn't quite the same, but it is similar in that another developer is claiming didn't get to competitively bid and was told his proposal wasn't possible ... low and behold... Tyler Perry moves in with talks.
In the case of Cobb... The Braves outright bought the property they want to redevelop themselves, so they can customize it. This is not the city's fault! The Braves have to play by the same rules in both places, but they would have faced a harder time outbidding other developers in Atlanta.
The Falcons deal was a continuation of the same tax, admittedly there is always an opportunity costs to the tax money not going elsewhere, but politically it was a tax controlled by the state and was unlikely to be changed. This money couldn't have been shifted by Reed or the city to other city projects or the Braves very easily and possibly could have lost the funding altogether if the state legislature got involved. Admittedly, the Falcons are the benefactor of a political 'lets not touch the issue' truce between the city and the state.
The Braves wanted to city to spend money it didn't have funding for and would have required bonds to be issued, which would prevent Reed from issuing bonds for needed infrastructure maintenance.
The Braves also were not willing to put as much private investment into the project as the Falcons were and the football stadium is also used for GWCC purposes that helps lure major conventions here (extra economic benefits to the city and hotels ... source of the tax revenue)
I also want to point out one thing... Reed was blind-sided. The Braves weren't exactly as open about their negotiations and they didn't work well themselves.
Arthur Blank is putting down much more investment and negotiated and gave into the city on many things. There was a two-way negotiation.
The Braves didn't tell the city about the Cobb offer and they asked for things the city legally and ethically couldn't give. When told of that barrier, the Braves blamed the city...rather than finding a way to mutually work together with the reality of those barriers.
Solid post. People blame the city, but they don't realize that the barves weren't acting in good faith, and jumped the gun on the deadline. Had they not come to an agreement by the deadline, it may have been a different story.
The bigger thing that no one probably realizes is that this all means that Ralph David Abernathy and University Ave are probably about to be re-developed as well. As someone who owns investment property not too far from the stadium, I'm extremely happy that for those developers who don't get the former Braves land, they probably already have back-up property in the immediate area they are looking at. Developers don't put all their eggs in one basket. I'm an investor, so I'm aware of that dynamic. It's probably BEST to let GA State buy the land they want, bring the university students down into that area to drive up rental prices, and let the other developers like the ones from Abu Dahbi fix up the other blighted strips in the surrounding neighborhoods.
The city and Annie E Casey apparently realize, since all that new artwork along University Ave are probably to attract investors.
I'm definitely not selling my investment property right now. I'll just have to get good renters in there and keep evicting and trying again until I succeed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zanarkand A East
People blame the city, but they don't realize that the barves weren't acting in good faith, and jumped the gun on the deadline.
Actually, the city dropped the ball. The Braves were very clear to the city that they needed to make a decision right then and there, that they couldn't wait until 2016 since they needed years to build the replacement if it came to that. The city put all their eggs in the Falcons basket, and you can't fault them for that, but you can't also blame the Braves for the city making that decision. Furthermore, the city had done nothing with the surrounding area of the stadium, which actually violated their agreements with the Braves.
Last edited by netdragon; 07-20-2014 at 12:04 PM..
I'm just glad Cobb was there to pick up the slack when COA dropped the ball. But that's the advantage of having a strong metro -- when one area gets in trouble another part of town is usually able to fill the breach.
I'm just glad Cobb was there to pick up the slack when COA dropped the ball. But that's the advantage of having a strong metro -- when one area gets in trouble another part of town is usually able to fill the breach.
Well thank God Cobb was there to hand over $400 million of their taxpayer's money to Liberty Media!
With nothing but respect, just because you keep repeating that doesn't make it true. The so called "ball" in this case was $400 million in public funds and selling public land in a non-competitive process.
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