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Ladies and Gentlemen, all people of City Data, as someone pointed out on the subreddit, in the latest Peachtree Street bike lanes thread, it's time for us to consider a bit of master-planning. Here's the quote from /u/rye-bread123
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What concerns and confuses me a bit is that it seem like there is a lack of a unified plan and approach for the Midtown/Downtown street network. We've heard a lot over the years about many different projects: Peachtree protected lanes, peachtree sharrows, portman PATH, W. Peachtree not there anymore bike lane, Juniper, two-way on Spring/W. Peachtree...etc.
In my opinion I think they need to put this all together into a unified E-W/N-S plan that designates which streets are better for which mode. I am not really sure if we need adjacent cycle-tracks on Ptree and Juniper, and where would the above ground transit accomodations and/or future streetcar be in this system? In my opinion I think we need just one pair of one way streets, a street with bus/streetcar transit priority, and two streets with premier bike facilities, perferably not next to each other. These corridors would need to run uninterrupted from like, turner field to Arts Center, without any turns or breaks like the abysmal bike lane crossings at Ptree Center/Ptree/McGill/Ivan Allen, and 10th/Myrtle.
Here is my response:
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We really DO need a unified street / bike / transit plan. A MASTER downtown mobility plan, which I think is actually in the plans already under Tim Keane...
Concentrate on moving people within the city within our limited, narrow, and highly valuable surface space.
Concentrate on getting people out of cars and into alternative, much more people-efficient modes of transportation. In tandem, concentrate on getting people into downtown without having them drive in.
Consider the overlapping of systems in complimentary ways (combination bus+streetcar+emergency vehicle lanes) as well as in harmful ways (bike lanes fighting for road space with transit lanes).
Consider closing entire streets to standard traffic with the exception of pedestrians + bikes + transit vehicles + maybe delivery vehicles + emergency vehicles.
Don't forget that, as much as it would be nice to not worry about it, we still need parking in general. That should, to me, be concentrated off the main routes (no parking lanes in transit corridors, maybe parking as buffers to non-main bikeway corridors, etc.). Try to limit the amount of parking as much as possible, but don't forget about it.
I will say that I think all of that is on the way, and it's a bit hard to see that from the ground like most of us are, but I would be much less anxious if I could see an official plan about mixing all of these things.
What plans am I missing? What plans do we need? What guidelines am I missing? What guidelines do we need? What do y'all think about whether or not we need a master plan for downtown? Where do you think the boundaries should be (I consider inside the BeltLine to be a rather natural boarder)?
If we can come up with some solid stuff, I see no reason why we shouldn't push for it at our local government. Maybe the city is already working on it, maybe they need a bit of a shove to start before they get too swallowed up in all of the overlapping projects.
From a purely transportation perspective, I can't imagine anyone choosing to bike all the way from downtown to buckhead or take a slow streetcar, that would be insane. downtown, buckhead, and midtown are wonderfully connected via heavy rail. I think it would be better to put in street cars perpendicular to the north-south train line, except for the 1 mile needed between downtown and 10th street.
1. Street car from downtown to 10th street along Peachtree st. or West Peachtree st (better option)
2. Street car from Atlantic station to Midtown Arts MARTA
3. Street Car from midtown MARTA on 10th to Piedmont Park
That's all that is needed. Those 3 lines are all, and they aren't really that long either. This will improve the downtown connectivity significantly.
As far as bike lanes and making roads better for pedestrians, they can make those improvements at the same time that they add the street cars. Improving even minor tiny section of roads would go very far. Spring st or West peachtreet street are wide enough to add bike lanes without any infrastructure improvements whatsoever other than adding striping.
It might even make more sense to build the street car along West Peachtree St since it is closer to MARTA line than Peachtree. From a retail perspective, I think it would be better to just add biking lanes to peachtree and leave the street car completely off of it because of the severe right of way restrictions. West Peachtree is only 2 streets west of Peachtree so its not like it's going to detract from the future prospects of the midtown mile or anything.
fourthwarden, if the map you've shown is the city's plan and it doesn't include any East/west street car lines, than I'm afraid Atlanta's future isn't looking too bright from a connectivity standpoint.
Great work, I would invite you to collaborate on the earlier MARTA expansion map I made, but this is awesome!
Your I-20 East Section C is incorrect. There is no way they can run BRT along Glenwood, east of Moreland to I-20. It's narrow minor collector lined with residential. The existing roadway is 31' wide.
Great work, I would invite you to collaborate on the earlier MARTA expansion map I made, but this is awesome!
Your I-20 East Section C is incorrect. There is no way they can run BRT along Glenwood, east of Moreland to I-20. It's narrow minor collector lined with residential. The existing roadway is 31' wide.
Glenwood is 40ft including sidewalks (so yeah, 30ft of roadway). It was certainly one of the ones that I had/have trouble with.
Unlike Moreland, where you can bite into the parking lots a bit, Glenwood is pretty bounded by store-fronts around the East Atlanta triangle of stuff. Maybe Glenwood could be expanded a bit into people's yards, but something tells me that that's not going to go over well. At least the on-street parking is not particularly necessary, so that's a few feet there.
Glenwood actually widens out to 45ft further away from the East Atlanta triangle, and then to 50ft as you approach I-20 once more.
It's a tough route to fit anything into... maybe a center-running bus lane that is signaled to only allow one bus at a time in each direction? I dunno...
From a purely transportation perspective, I can't imagine anyone choosing to bike all the way from downtown to buckhead or take a slow streetcar, that would be insane. downtown, buckhead, and midtown are wonderfully connected via heavy rail. I think it would be better to put in street cars perpendicular to the north-south train line, except for the 1 mile needed between downtown and 10th street.
What about a streetcar that moves at the speed of traffic? What about a streetcar that fills in the gaps of heavy rail along the built-up Peachtree corridor? Because that's what's actually planned.
You say people won't take it, yet Route 110 'The Peach' is one of MARTA's most heavily used bus routes. The streetcar would be following its route from 5-Points to Buckhead, and will supply the nearly 5 miles of business and apartment -lined Peachtree Street that is not at all served by Heavy Rail.
You might be right about not taking the streetcar FROM Buckhead to Downtown, but what about everything in between? There's an awful lot of people and commercial properties along that stretch.
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1. Street car from downtown to 10th street along Peachtree st. or West Peachtree st (better option)
2. Street car from Atlantic station to Midtown Arts MARTA
3. Street Car from midtown MARTA on 10th to Piedmont Park
That's all that is needed. Those 3 lines are all, and they aren't really that long either. This will improve the downtown connectivity significantly.
It would improve Midtown connectivity, not Downtown connectivity. While I would like to see those routes taken up at some point, and in fact they are all considered 'Connect Atlanta Corridors to be re-evaluated for Streetcar Service later on, I also see little wrong with the other lines planned, which will actually serve Downtown.
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As far as bike lanes and making roads better for pedestrians, they can make those improvements at the same time that they add the street cars. Improving even minor tiny section of roads would go very far. Spring st or West peachtreet street are wide enough to add bike lanes without any infrastructure improvements whatsoever other than adding striping.
This is mostly true, though barrier-separated bike tracks are better, and still not terribly expensive. I am still working on this map, and am going to integrate the city's bike plan into it, with street sections combining services between transit lanes and bike lanes.
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It might even make more sense to build the street car along West Peachtree St since it is closer to MARTA line than Peachtree. From a retail perspective, I think it would be better to just add biking lanes to peachtree and leave the street car completely off of it because of the severe right of way restrictions. West Peachtree is only 2 streets west of Peachtree so its not like it's going to detract from the future prospects of the midtown mile or anything.
We'll have to see how to handle Peachtree. The problem with your plan is that West-Peachtree is one-way, and running streetcars in both directions will mess with traffic.
In fact, the current plan is to run North-Bound streetcars along Peachtree, with South-Bound streetcars on West Peachtree. That adds a bit of service to Midtown in general, serving last-mile connections away from the heavy rail corridor (again, where Route 110 gets its riders from, despite generally following the Red/Gold Lines).
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fourthwarden, if the map you've shown is the city's plan and it doesn't include any East/west street car lines, than I'm afraid Atlanta's future isn't looking too bright from a connectivity standpoint.
The maps is... sort of the city's plan. The streetcars and BeltLine are, certainly, and I hope to add the bike plans ontop of it all. Buckhead actually removed itself from the streetcar plan, but I have a feeling they'll want it again once more in-town lines are built and ridership is up.
The other routes are all MARTA, minus the Clayton commuter rail, though I should probably add that.
The street-sections are all my design, and don't reflect any official say, only what I felt that the corridors would look best like.
In general, I don't think we're nearly as screwed connection-wise as you seem to think. Just because 10th street and 17th street don't have streetcars immediately planned for them, doesn't mean the city's overall connectivity won't be leaps and bounds better for the planned routes. Even if 10th and 17th were officially part of the plan, they'd likely not be built until near the end anyway, which still gives the city plenty of time to get there.
What I would like to see is that we go ahead and establish all of these transit lanes now. Let's let buses use them where the routes overlap, as well as introduce new services to make best use of them, and let's let the neighborhoods get used to the idea of having such transit lanes in general.
That can certainly extend to other corridors as well, including 10th and 17th perhaps, to make the best use of transit corridors within our core as we can.
^Peachtree Rd between Buckhead and Midtown is a mess and I could see a streetcar or SOMETHING being used there. Too much car traffic but no other way to get around except the bus. It's the worst of density and suburban style development put together.
Glenwood is 40ft including sidewalks (so yeah, 30ft of roadway). It was certainly one of the ones that I had/have trouble with.
Unlike Moreland, where you can bite into the parking lots a bit, Glenwood is pretty bounded by store-fronts around the East Atlanta triangle of stuff. Maybe Glenwood could be expanded a bit into people's yards, but something tells me that that's not going to go over well. At least the on-street parking is not particularly necessary, so that's a few feet there.
Glenwood actually widens out to 45ft further away from the East Atlanta triangle, and then to 50ft as you approach I-20 once more.
It's a tough route to fit anything into... maybe a center-running bus lane that is signaled to only allow one bus at a time in each direction? I dunno...
I will tell you the residents will protest it (me included). This is not a section of Glenwood that needs BRT. The route should get off at Bill Kennedy and use Memorial Dr, then get back on I-20 at Moreland.
I will tell you the residents will protest it (me included). This is not a section of Glenwood that needs BRT. The route should get off at Bill Kennedy and use Memorial Dr, then get back on I-20 at Moreland.
I'd expect nothing less of a protest for proposing to bite into people's yards. I would like to see MARTA's reasoning as far as this routing goes, first, though.
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