MARTA Launches Studies to Bring Rail to Clayton County (Atlanta: sale, school)

[MattCW]

Originally Posted by cqholt

You are suggesting not running LRT/Streetcar on the MOST popular and destination-heavy segment of the trail?

Try re-reading what I wrote. I am suggesting running CRT plus ONE of the other. The majority wants a trail? Run that. The majority wants LRT? Run that then. If anything this whole thing will significantly boost the beltline's perception as being able to handle local plus regional transportation.

[cqholt]

Originally Posted by MattCW

Try re-reading what I wrote. I am suggesting running CRT plus ONE of the other. The majority wants a trail? Run that. The majority wants LRT? Run that then. If anything this whole thing will significantly boost the beltline's perception as being able to handle local plus regional transportation.

Or just do what the community already approved. and stop designing our city for suburban commuters.

[MattCW]

Originally Posted by cqholt

Or just do what the community already approved. and stop designing our city for suburban commuters.

Cities have commuters. Deal with it or get out. Those suburban commuters bring more money into Atlanta than the native population can, several times over.

[cqholt]

Originally Posted by MattCW

Cities have commuters. Deal with it or get out. Those suburban commuters bring more money into Atlanta than the native population can, several times over.

That does not mean that we should accommodate Atlanta's biggest project for only them. The BeltLine will include LRT, which will help them to move around the city without a car. Atlanta has many other rail corridors CRT can use to access downtown, without using the Howell Wye.
If worse come to worse, terminate 85 north trains at Lindbergh/Armour and transfer them to MARTA/Clifton Corridor. But the BeltLine is hands off!

[MattCW]

Originally Posted by cqholt

That does not mean that we should accommodate Atlanta's biggest project for only them.

What part of TWO of the three modes are you failing to understand? CRT would not operate to the exclusion of BOTH local modes, only ONE of them! Even then, the other mode isn't being simply terminated, just moved a little!

The BeltLine will include LRT, which will help them to move around the city without a car.

But they still have to get there first!

Atlanta has many other rail corridors CRT can use to access downtown, without using the Howell Wye.

Huh? I-85 has exactly three options, Howell, beltline or entirely new RoW blasting through other neighborhoods. The only corridor with a preexisting option is the Tucker line, it can cutoff on the east side of Emory (with transfer to Clifton Corridor) and come in from the east.

If worse come to worse, terminate 85 north trains at Lindbergh/Armour and transfer them to MARTA/Clifton Corridor.

Impossible. NS would never allow trains terminating on the mainline, and there isn't enough space to build significant layover facilities, plus you're forcing a transfer when there's no need.

But the BeltLine is hands off!

Nothing is hands off. Quit fighting so hard to force-fit the city into your narrow box of how you think it should be and take a look at the broader picture. Why is it such a tragedy if CRT shares space on the beltline too?

[cqholt]

Originally Posted by MattCW

What part of TWO of the three modes are you failing to understand? CRT would not operate to the exclusion of BOTH local modes, only ONE of them! Even then, the other mode isn't being simply terminated, just moved a little!
But they still have to get there first!
Huh? I-85 has exactly three options, Howell, beltline or entirely new RoW blasting through other neighborhoods. The only corridor with a preexisting option is the Tucker line, it can cutoff on the east side of Emory (with transfer to Clifton Corridor) and come in from the east.
Impossible. NS would never allow trains terminating on the mainline, and there isn't enough space to build significant layover facilities, plus you're forcing a transfer when there's no need.
Nothing is hands off. Quit fighting so hard to force-fit the city into your narrow box of how you think it should be and take a look at the broader picture. Why is it such a tragedy if CRT shares space on the beltline too?

[fourthwarden]

Originally Posted by MattCW

Cities have commuters. Deal with it or get out. Those suburban commuters bring more money into Atlanta than the native population can, several times over.

Yet the BeltLine, with both the trail AND Light Rail component is a major part of attracting, and concentrating development to add to the 'native' population's tax resources.

I wonder what the opportunity cost of loosing even one component of the Eastside BeltLine to commuter rail is compared to the commuters. How many vehicle miles are added to local roads? How much in development is lost? How much does it affect property taxes? How many people no longer use it to walk to local amenities.

The reality is that we NEED all three. The Commuter rail line is the one thing that actually has viable alternative routings, even if they're not perfect. Therefore it is the commuter rail line which needs to be shifted.

Originally Posted by MattCW

What part of TWO of the three modes are you failing to understand? CRT would not operate to the exclusion of BOTH local modes, only ONE of them! Even then, the other mode isn't being simply terminated, just moved a little!

So why not make the commuter rail the one which is being 'just moved a little', since there really ARE NO ALTERNATIVES for the eastside BeltLine, trail or transit, that delivers the same level of transportation quality.

But they still have to get there first!

And if there's no last mile connection, and if the area is is unworkable, then what's the point of getting there by transit at all?

Huh? I-85 has exactly three options, Howell, beltline or entirely new RoW blasting through other neighborhoods. The only corridor with a preexisting option is the Tucker line, it can cutoff on the east side of Emory (with transfer to Clifton Corridor) and come in from the east.

There's also the option of building a turnout onto the CSX line at Armour, and routing down, around and towards Hulsey Yard. That would require taking out / moving a church, a few commercial properties, and realigning a road. A far cry from 'blasting through' neighborhoods.

Impossible. NS would never allow trains terminating on the mainline, and there isn't enough space to build significant layover facilities, plus you're forcing a transfer when there's no need.

If they needed to terminate, then they could use Armor yard. It's barely used at all, with lots of extra storage space.

Nothing is hands off. Quit fighting so hard to force-fit the city into your narrow box of how you think it should be and take a look at the broader picture. Why is it such a tragedy if CRT shares space on the beltline too?

I might have a word or two about the potential of your view of the city, and how narrow it may be compared to others'.

The reality is that the city actually NEEDS all three of them. It needs a comprehensive commuter rail network, a comprehensive inner core transit network, and pedestrian / bicycle corridor. The BeltLine is the only right of way that functions for a loop of inner core transit AND inner core bike / ped facilities.

After all, the light rail adds last mile connections for commuter rail, and the ped / bike facilities add last & first mile connections for the light rail. Each can act as a singular mode of transit, but together they represent the much needed NETWORK of options and modes. They are all complimentary to one another, and they are all necessary to handle the populations we're likely going to be dealing with in the future.

Commuter rail has alternatives. Let's work on making those alternatives viable before we start ripping out plans for either transit or bike/ped accessibility within the city itself.

[primaltech]

I know if I lived right along the east Beltline, I'd rather have a nearby LRT-like (or HRT-like, whatever) CRT station that heads directly to Five Points (and directly up to Lenox Mall too), than the streetcar. Only one transfer required to get to the airport. Just would be so much more functionally useful.

If I lived on the Beltline, a mile or 2 north of PCM, if I wanted to go there I'd just walk or bike. Or whatever specific destination along there. That's what the trail is for anyway.

Just do it as a CRT-only corridor, with a shorter, light as possible FRA-compliant train that stops about 3 times along that section of the Beltline, fulfilling the local transit function to some degree. Just have the train go slow through there while it's along the trail. Just my personal preference and opinion on it.

[bu2]

Originally Posted by primaltech

I know if I lived right along the east Beltline, I'd rather have a nearby LRT-like (or HRT-like, whatever) CRT station that heads directly to Five Points (and directly up to Lenox Mall too), than the streetcar. Only one transfer required to get to the airport. Just would be so much more functionally useful.

If I lived on the Beltline, a mile or 2 north of PCM, if I wanted to go there I'd just walk or bike. Or whatever specific destination along there. That's what the trail is for anyway.

Just do it as a CRT-only corridor, with a shorter, light as possible FRA-compliant train that stops about 3 times along that section of the Beltline, fulfilling the local transit function to some degree. Just have the train go slow through there while it's along the trail. Just my personal preference and opinion on it.

I wonder if people on the south side would rather have trail and HRT instead of trail and LRT.

[cqholt]

Originally Posted by primaltech

I know if I lived right along the east Beltline, I'd rather have a nearby LRT-like (or HRT-like, whatever) CRT station that heads directly to Five Points (and directly up to Lenox Mall too), than the streetcar. Only one transfer required to get to the airport. Just would be so much more functionally useful.

If I lived on the Beltline, a mile or 2 north of PCM, if I wanted to go there I'd just walk or bike. Or whatever specific destination along there. That's what the trail is for anyway.

Just do it as a CRT-only corridor, with a shorter, light as possible FRA-compliant train that stops about 3 times along that section of the Beltline, fulfilling the local transit function to some degree. Just have the train go slow through there while it's along the trail. Just my personal preference and opinion on it.

The amount of energy to move that heavy railcar would make it inefficent to serve a human-scaled corridor like the BeltLine. That's why LRT/Streetcar was chosen, it can easily get to a good cruising speed 35mph, slow down at stops, and breaking shorter in an emergency. LRT/Streetcar offers better safety for street-level interaction with people.
The city-wide streetcar network is not designed for speed-only, it is to move people thru and around the core, connecting to existing rail networks.