Georgia Senate panel recommends 'path forward' for regional transit (Roswell: employment, income tax)

[cwkimbro]

Originally Posted by J2rescue

There has always been a nearly total disconnect between transit infrastructure and where development happens in Atlanta. Absent the demand and interest from private investment, which was the case until very recently, Marta using eminent domain for development purposes would have been pointless.

I agree,

but moreso... I think it would be very wise of MARTA not to use eminent domain on existing residential and business properties for any purposes other than transportation.

To use it only for TOD over time could make the existing public feel uneasy and turn a political tide against the use of eminent domain at all. The harsh reality is they need in order to make public rights of way, not solely development.

It's important to keep the public's trust for the most important critical goals.

I think cities and counties need to be more involved at zoning and considering what to do in transitioning areas, but I certainly see no problem with MARTA re-utilizing their current properties to better integrate with the community. Most past eminent domain was used clearly in a way that wasn't targeted for doing TOD next to stations in 2020 and beyond.

[primaltech]

The sad thing about TOD, is that it already exists in tons of places all around this metro, just without the damn transit.

I mean, you look at Marietta, or even just our little Vinings Village area. There would be so much TOD ready to go, if they'd just build the rail line and some stations. Basically all the historic downtowns in all the metro counties.

And even in the city, you've got these dense compact spots like Buckhead Village. Sure would have been nice to have been able to build the Buckhead MARTA station right there, instead of a block from the already existing Lenox station.

The corner of Virginia Ave and N Highland. Imagine a MARTA subway type station right there. It would be like Decatur.

Zoo Atlanta would have been an ideal station all these years. Or a station right on Piedmont Park or Chastain Park. It's so strange where all the rail in Atlanta goes, and doesn't go. Seems like 38 stations could have had more of the city/metro's key locations be in walking distance. I mean, like, our one Amtrak. Or the Atlanta Braves all these years. Too bad.

[primaltech]

Atlantic Station is practically screaming for a heavy rail station. But unfortunately I doubt it will ever get one.

[primaltech]

SunTrust Park/The Battery, it's going to be just like TOD, without the T

[cqholt]

Originally Posted by primaltech

The sad thing about TOD, is that it already exists in tons of places all around this metro, just without the damn transit.

I mean, you look at Marietta, or even just our little Vinings Village area. There would be so much TOD ready to go, if they'd just build the rail line and some stations. Basically all the historic downtowns in all the metro counties.

And even in the city, you've got these dense compact spots like Buckhead Village. Sure would have been nice to have been able to build the Buckhead MARTA station right there, instead of a block from the already existing Lenox station.

The corner of Virginia Ave and N Highland. Imagine a MARTA subway type station right there. It would be like Decatur.

Zoo Atlanta would have been an ideal station all these years. Or a station right on Piedmont Park or Chastain Park. It's so strange where all the rail in Atlanta goes, and doesn't go. Seems like 38 stations could have had more of the city/metro's key locations be in walking distance. I mean, like, our one Amtrak. Or the Atlanta Braves all these years. Too bad.

Multi-million/billion dollar transit lines should not be compared to tens of million dollar TODs. The decision was made to utilize CSX and NS extra ROW for the lines to reduce costs, as can be read in .
If MARTA would have persuaded not using the RR ROW, the system would have costs more and we could have ended up with a smaller system.

[tikigod311]

Originally Posted by fourthwarden

By the way, here is the link to the actual report from the senate's study committee.

Just reading the quote you posted gives me hope. As I am taking it, is sounds like the State is interested in providing funding. While I know funding won't come without stipulations, that paragraph sounds like they don't want to get in the business of designing a new system/agency, rather find ways to fund existing agencies.

I just get the feeling they know they are in for a fight when it comes to control of MARTA and they don't think it is worth the headache. But, these are politicians, so common sense should not be counted on.

[primaltech]

Originally Posted by tikigod311

While I know funding won't come without stipulations, that paragraph sounds like they don't want to get in the business of designing a new system/agency, rather find ways to fund existing agencies.

I would seriously hope not. We already have too many transit agencies in metro Atlanta.

I mean, if they do literally nothing else with all this, just simply folding CCT and GCT into GRTA, and then giving both MARTA and GRTA some permanent state funding for operations/capital expansion, would be phenomenal progress towards much better regional transit, in my opinion.

Then Cobb and Gwinnett can vote to join MARTA whenever they're ready, without having it forced on them.

And if a 13-county comprehensive GRTA metro transit system (that includes the MARTA counties), has commuter rail and express buses and local buses and everything they really need, and enough funding to be effective at all that, then maybe those 2 counties would not even necessarily need to join MARTA.

Cobb and Gwinnett definitely need rail, but I don't see any reason why it couldn't be GRTA commuter rail.

[cqholt]

Originally Posted by primaltech

I would seriously hope not. We already have too many transit agencies in metro Atlanta.

I mean, if they do literally nothing else with all this, just simply folding CCT and GCT into GRTA, and then giving both MARTA and GRTA some permanent state funding for operations/capital expansion, would be phenomenal progress towards much better regional transit, in my opinion.

Then Cobb and Gwinnett can vote to join MARTA whenever they're ready, without having it forced on them.

And if a 13-county comprehensive GRTA metro transit system (that includes the MARTA counties), has commuter rail and express buses and local buses and everything they really need, and enough funding to be effective at all that, then maybe those 2 counties would not even necessarily need to join MARTA.

Cobb and Gwinnett definitely need rail, but I don't see any reason why it couldn't be GRTA commuter rail.

If they local leadership of those counties want commuter rail and they hold an amendment for funding, then that is a good way forward.

[cwkimbro]

The problem is the counties can't make up how to do it, how it is taxed, or how much to tax for which service. The county's can't merely hold an amendment for funding. That is why Cobb and Gwinnett fund their own systems from their general budgets. Both run local and commuter services.

The state has to make that law, which is part of the reason it is so important they look into this a bit harder. Even if they tried to use their own sales tax, they can only use particular taxes granted by the state and the overall use is capped.

So counties are frequently maxed out. It is incorrect to say Gwinnett and Cobb are not paying into regional needs. They are, just now how some people want them to. The major exception is the city of Atlanta was granted an exception for MOST to help shore up the problems with the water and sewage authority. I suspect it will eventually be removed in the future.

They also have to make an agency and/or law that is amendable to different levels of service, different county sizes, different needs, and different levels of taxation to some degree. I actually think the key to commuter rail is to get 13+ counties in an agency. It would make sense for this to be coordinated with bus commuter systems. There will be some small, but heavy expenses in a few key core areas that will be required for a whole system to work. I think the key is we all help fund them, but most will shun any plan that requires them to have a one-size-fits-all plan for a whole penny sales tax when many will just get an a commuter stop or two with limited service.

Increasingly, we need a plan, regardless of how long it takes. I think in the main North-South route through town the state will have to buy some right of way and make a commuter track from reading specific responses from N-S, not to mention build something across Howell Junction. I think there is more room for shared track-usage with commuter service with the freight RRs as we go further from town. The key thing is we have to build around main junctions, pinch-points, and possibly build some secondary tracks so they can make freight deliveries to industrial districts during hours of passenger operations.

My fear is new re-development is occurring in these corridors and space is not being saved.

Although, I completely understand the concerns by all parties.


I do want to caution everyone. It isn't like this is a broken system as-is. Commuter busing in Gwinnett works well and GRTA and the county have made substantial investments to making it work. Sure someone flying in from out of town might have trouble understanding it on a map and not understand the marketing of different agencies, but for day-to-day commuters the buses are there and people know how to use them.

Someone talked about about rolling in Gwinntt and Cobb's system to MARTA to create efficiency. The flaw is Gwinnett (not sure about Cobb), at least as of a few years ago, was operationally more efficient than MARTA in terms of price paid for moving a bus for an hour. It isn't always about size. MARTA certainly has more resources and facilities, but they also have huge commitments for service that spreads them thin, and old pension structure, and unions to contend with. (now, to deter any arguments... they are less efficient on a passenger basis... in that they can not get the critical mass to use their routes, like some corridors in Atlanta can).

Gwinnett, for better and worse, is able to contract out parts of their operations to keep costs down where it makes sense and do some stuff in-house where it makes sense.

Xpress does the same thing and they often contract Gwinnett Transit, CobbLinc, and private companies to operate and drive the buses at a savings of doing everything in-house.

[cwkimbro]

Originally Posted by cqholt

Multi-million/billion dollar transit lines should not be compared to tens of million dollar TODs. The decision was made to utilize CSX and NS extra ROW for the lines to reduce costs, as can be read in .
If MARTA would have persuaded not using the RR ROW, the system would have costs more and we could have ended up with a smaller system.

It's a great point, but I just wanted to add that is important to note that MARTA actually still made sizable investments in critical areas. It wasn't all built on the cheap, but they did wisely choose where to be cheap and where not do be.

City of Decatur, parts of Perimeter Center, and the Midtown Downtown stretch are all key areas.

People also forget, especially newcomers, that Midtown was not always a huge business district. It was a key retail neighborhood when the system was initially being planned out and eventually built. There was a point in time they were planning on using the RR right of way through town and not tunneling under Midtown.

Of course, part of what helped was the increasing costs of expanding the right of way next to the RR tracks through and south of Howell Junction.