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Your argument is confusing. First you say that people are flocking to the Metro Atlanta suburbs (over the city) because they prefer the suburban lifestyle, (big house, car, elbow room etc.) Okay, I get that.
People should also take into account the most of the city of Atlanta proper is also suburban. Tons of folks enjoy the comfortable suburban lifestyle within the city limits.
People should also take into account the most of the city of Atlanta proper is also suburban. Tons of folks enjoy the comfortable suburban lifestyle within the city limits.
True indeed
As I mentioned earlier in the thread, there is really something for everybody within the City of Atlanta. But many just don’t know or have a certain perception of the city that isn’t quite accurate and/or inclusive. I think many view the entire city as either an asphalt jungle like downtown/midtown, rife with poverty and crime like the Bluff (for now), or full of tiny, old, grossly overpriced bungalows. But there is really so much more “uncharted territory” that is oblivious to those who do not live here.
Last edited by equinox63; 07-09-2023 at 08:59 AM..
As I mentioned earlier in the thread, there is really something for everybody within the City of Atlanta. But many just don’t know or have a certain perception of the city that isn’t quite accurate and/or inclusive. I think many view the entire city as either an asphalt jungle like downtown/midtown, rife with poverty and crime like the Bluff (for now), or full of tiny, old, grossly overpriced bungalows. But there is really so much more “uncharted territory” that is oblivious to those who do not live here.
Tell it! There really is something for everyone within the City, and room for an incredible amount of new development. We are certainly not 'full,' not even close!
As I mentioned earlier in the thread, there is really something for everybody within the City of Atlanta. But many just don’t know or have a certain perception of the city that isn’t quite accurate and/or inclusive. I think many view the entire city as either an asphalt jungle like downtown/midtown, rife with poverty and crime like the Bluff (for now), or full of tiny, old, grossly overpriced bungalows. But there is really so much more “uncharted territory” that is oblivious to those who do not live here.
Many neighborhoods in the city of Atlanta (e.g., Ansley, Cascade, Druid Hills and Buckhead) have ER that would easily rival Milton, Alpharetta or Forsyth.
You make some good points (as well as the other posters who have essentially said the same thing). Although the official City of Atlanta can definitely be more dense than it is, I probably should start thinking about it a bit differently in relation to other cities, at least in terms of size and population compared to their surrounding metro areas.
Even though these areas are still different municipalities, I have heard people equate it to Manhattan being like the City of Atlanta, and the other boroughs being like the surrounding metro cities even though it’s all NYC — generally speaking. Nevertheless, the comparisons and stats provided by you, B2R, DoubleZ OTP, testa50 (and perhaps some others that I can’t remember at the moment) have been really helpful.
I didn’t realize that the City of Atlanta’s footprint is a small as it is compared to other cities. Just imagine if Buckhead had successfully seceded from the city… yikes.
Yeah I don't the view of Atlanta proper vs suburbs. Expecting most of a metro 8,000 sq mi population growth to be 135.32 sq mi doesn't make sense. but rather more like Atlanta & core suburbs vs outer suburbs. Even the OTP vs ITP is out dated to how metro is set up.
Some of Atlanta neighborhoods are less dense than suburban neighborhoods, Some of the Suburbs neighborhoods are more dense than some of the city neighborhoods. At the same time some Atlanta older suburbs in core counties are in filling.
But in about 300 to 500 sq mi over metro Atlanta you capture most of Atlanta urban redevelopment, most major employment centers etc.
A lot of Atlanta's older establish suburbs in the core counties are infilling. Alpharetta and Sandy Springs isn't like Central Forsyth county there isn't much land to sprawl more tract housing. They have to densify. They trying to create Downtowns like Decatur. Project like Avalon happen similar as Atlantic station. The CID of edge cities are trying to redevelop more urban, The cities I grew up the most in Atlanta are Smyrna, Norcross, Chamblee and all 3 hand pretty progressive stance on New Urbanism.
think of Glenwood Park as your look at some these developments.
Newer Smyrna
This is actually my old neighborhoods in the 90s. If you down the street a little it change from 2020 image to 2008, and see will the radical change in infilling. Smyrna
whether or not they part of city proper, don't change Metro Atlanta in 300 to 400 sq mi take on the function of the city.
Basically the anti city arguments of Atlanta 135.32 sq mi vs All the suburbs and treating Alpharetta, marietta like it's Canton, McDonough, Cumming, Dallas, Newnan etc. doesn't make sense. The argument is frame as if All suburban growth is sprawl, like building infill projects in Alpharetta is the same thing as building new track suburban homes in Central Forsyth.
As I mentioned earlier in the thread, there is really something for everybody within the City of Atlanta. But many just don’t know or have a certain perception of the city that isn’t quite accurate and/or inclusive. I think many view the entire city as either an asphalt jungle like downtown/midtown, rife with poverty and crime like the Bluff (for now), or full of tiny, old, grossly overpriced bungalows. But there is really so much more “uncharted territory” that is oblivious to those who do not live here.
The bungalows really are overpriced. But I’d love to own one one day. With a covered front porch and a basement.
Yeah I don't the view of Atlanta proper vs suburbs. Expecting most of a metro 8,000 sq mi population growth to be 135.32 sq mi doesn't make sense. but rather more like Atlanta & core suburbs vs outer suburbs. Even the OTP vs ITP is out dated to how metro is set up.
Some of Atlanta neighborhoods are less dense than suburban neighborhoods, Some of the Suburbs neighborhoods are more dense than some of the city neighborhoods. At the same time some Atlanta older suburbs in core counties are in filling.
But in about 300 to 500 sq mi over metro Atlanta you capture most of Atlanta urban redevelopment, most major employment centers etc.
A lot of Atlanta's older establish suburbs in the core counties are infilling. Alpharetta and Sandy Springs isn't like Central Forsyth county there isn't much land to sprawl more tract housing. They have to densify. They trying to create Downtowns like Decatur. Project like Avalon happen similar as Atlantic station. The CID of edge cities are trying to redevelop more urban, The cities I grew up the most in Atlanta are Smyrna, Norcross, Chamblee and all 3 hand pretty progressive stance on New Urbanism.
think of Glenwood Park as your look at some these developments.
Newer Smyrna
This is actually my old neighborhoods in the 90s. If you down the street a little it change from 2020 image to 2008, and see will the radical change in infilling. Smyrna
whether or not they part of city proper, don't change Metro Atlanta in 300 to 400 sq mi take on the function of the city.
Basically the anti city arguments of Atlanta 135.32 sq mi vs All the suburbs and treating Alpharetta, marietta like it's Canton, McDonough, Cumming, Dallas, Newnan etc. doesn't make sense. The argument is frame as if All suburban growth is sprawl, like building infill projects in Alpharetta is the same thing as building new track suburban homes in Central Forsyth.
Excellent points. You actually highlighted my neighborhood in Marietta... And there's been a lot more infill in this area since that Google Street View was taken.
Yeah I don't the view of Atlanta proper vs suburbs. Expecting most of a metro 8,000 sq mi population growth to be 135.32 sq mi doesn't make sense. but rather more like Atlanta & core suburbs vs outer suburbs. Even the OTP vs ITP is out dated to how metro is set up.
Some of Atlanta neighborhoods are less dense than suburban neighborhoods, Some of the Suburbs neighborhoods are more dense than some of the city neighborhoods. At the same time some Atlanta older suburbs in core counties are in filling.
But in about 300 to 500 sq mi over metro Atlanta you capture most of Atlanta urban redevelopment, most major employment centers etc.
A lot of Atlanta's older establish suburbs in the core counties are infilling. Alpharetta and Sandy Springs isn't like Central Forsyth county there isn't much land to sprawl more tract housing. They have to densify. They trying to create Downtowns like Decatur. Project like Avalon happen similar as Atlantic station. The CID of edge cities are trying to redevelop more urban, The cities I grew up the most in Atlanta are Smyrna, Norcross, Chamblee and all 3 hand pretty progressive stance on New Urbanism.
think of Glenwood Park as your look at some these developments.
Newer Smyrna
This is actually my old neighborhoods in the 90s. If you down the street a little it change from 2020 image to 2008, and see will the radical change in infilling. Smyrna
whether or not they part of city proper, don't change Metro Atlanta in 300 to 400 sq mi take on the function of the city.
Basically the anti city arguments of Atlanta 135.32 sq mi vs All the suburbs and treating Alpharetta, marietta like it's Canton, McDonough, Cumming, Dallas, Newnan etc. doesn't make sense. The argument is frame as if All suburban growth is sprawl, like building infill projects in Alpharetta is the same thing as building new track suburban homes in Central Forsyth.
Well, I agree to a certain extent. I can go with including the areas in and around the perimeter when referring to “Atlanta”. Areas such as Smyrna, Marietta, Sandy Springs, Perimeter Mall area, Cumberland, and maybe even Norcross can claim “Atlanta” as much as a Lithonia, Ellenwood, Stockbridge, Union City or Douglasville.
But IMHO, when you start getting into Alpharetta, John’s Creek, Duluth, Suwanee, etc., those are other areas “outside of Atlanta” (even with this loose definition). For example, for many years, I have been seeing a trusty mechanic in Suwanee for any car issues I may have. But when I discuss going to them, I would generally say that I go “out of town” to see that mechanic, because Suwanee is pretty far away from Atlanta in my opinion.
To me, Acworth, Canton, McDonough, Cumming, Dallas, Newnan, etc. may as well be another world. That is why I’m a little skeptical when people discuss these areas with any real comparison to Atlanta… even including the inner suburbs.
To put this in perspective, I will use a Los Angeles example (since that is how I started the thread). I view Alpharetta in relation to Atlanta somewhat like Long Beach in relation to Los Angeles. In fact, I think it’s a similar distance away. It may be that Alpharetta could be a bit farther from Atlanta than Long Beach is from LA. As I am not an LA native, I am not 100% sure how locals view it, but I imagine Long Beach as a separate entity that’s relatively close, and in the same county region, but not necessarily part of Los Angeles per se.
For example, if someone from Marietta were visiting friends out of state, I could understand if they told them that they live in “Atlanta”. Then, if questioned about what part, they can specify Marietta. I think the same can be said for my previous examples, like Lithonia, Ellenwood, Stockbridge, Union City, Douglasville, Doraville, Dunwoody, Tucker, Chamblee, etc.
But if someone from Alpharetta, Johns Creek, or even Kennesaw, were visiting another state, I think they would/should just say that they live in Alpharetta or Johns Creek — “just north of Atlanta”, or “Kennesaw, just north of Marietta” etc.
Similarly, I think people from Long Beach just say they live in Long Beach rather than saying they live in Los Angeles. After all, the entirety of North Georgia (virtually a third of the state) can’t all claim Atlanta, right?
With that said, in terms of the city versus suburb debate, I totally understand your point in terms of infill. This also speaks to the point that not everyone moving to the suburbs wants a massive home and lots of land. Even people in the suburbs like walkable areas with close-by amenities, etc.
However, I also view Alpharetta, Johns Creek, Milton, etc. as ground zero for much of the anti-Atlanta sentiment that we have been discussing. As I type this, I guess it is more accurate to describe it as an “anti-city of Atlanta” sentiment more so than just an “anti-city” sentiment. I would imagine this sentiment may be stronger in the far exurbs like Canton, Cumming, Acworth, Dallas, etc. But, to me, those areas are so far that they have little to no bearing on Atlanta or the closer suburbs. I suppose it is like residents of White Plains, NY being concerned about Manhattan. But I also feel this disconnect allows for any negative perceptions to grow because there’s little actual interaction between the exurbs and Atlanta really (other than local news, social media, and the like).
I’ve learned from posters on here that some would like to consider Alpharetta the hub of a twin city like Dallas/Fort Worth. This goes back to a point I made a little earlier about the desire to create mixed-use/walkable environments like Atlanta without actually being in Atlanta. But I think of the aversion to living in the City of Atlanta comes from a negative perception about Atlanta in of itself — and what it stands for — not necessarily urbanism in general.
Just like with the Long Beach/Los Angeles example. I would imagine Long Beach residents have a similar lifestyle than Los Angelinos, but those who live there would rather not be in Los Angeles — but they also do not claim Los Angles either (to a certain extent). Nor do I think they diss/avoid it as much as the northern arc of the Atlanta metro disses /avoids the City of Atlanta — but I could be wrong…
But to be fair, there are people who live in the city proper that never travel south of I-20 or people on the eastside of the city proper that never cross over to the westside. So it is really the same issue, just on a micro scale.
Not sure if I’m explaining this well, and I know this is all subjective. But, as a local, this is just how I interpret it. To be honest, when I was growing up, the general opinion was that if you couldn’t get there by MARTA, you were not in “Atlanta”. But, of course, this was decades ago… Nowadays, I pretty much view “Metro Atlanta” as the five core counties. Outside of that is pretty out there or “out of town” in my opinion. The surrounding counties might be considered the “North Georgia/Metro Atlanta region” perhaps, but not necessarily part of “Atlanta” per se….
Last edited by equinox63; 07-10-2023 at 08:18 AM..
Well, I agree to a certain extent. I can go with including the areas in and around the perimeter when referring to “Atlanta”. Areas such as Smyrna, Marietta, Sandy Springs, Perimeter Mall area, Cumberland, and maybe even Norcross can claim “Atlanta” as much as a Lithonia, Ellenwood, Stockbridge, Union City or Douglasville.
But IMHO, when you start getting into Alpharetta, John’s Creek, Duluth, Suwanee, etc., those are other areas “outside of Atlanta” (even with this loose definition). For example, for many years, I have been seeing a trusty mechanic in Suwanee for any car issues I may have. But when I discuss going to them, I would generally say that I go “out of town” to see that mechanic, because Suwanee is pretty far away from Atlanta in my opinion.
To me, Acworth, Canton, McDonough, Cumming, Dallas, Newnan, etc. may as well be another world. That is why I’m a little skeptical when people discuss these areas with any real comparison to Atlanta… even including the inner suburbs.
To put this in perspective, I will use a Los Angeles example (since that is how I started the thread). I view Alpharetta in relation to Atlanta somewhat like Long Beach in relation to Los Angeles. In fact, I think it’s a similar distance away. It may be that Alpharetta could be a bit farther from Atlanta than Long Beach is from LA. As I am not an LA native, I am not 100% sure how locals view it, but I imagine Long Beach as a separate entity that’s relatively close, and in the same county region, but not necessarily part of Los Angeles per se.
For example, if someone from Marietta were visiting friends out of state, I could understand if they told them that they live in “Atlanta”. Then, if questioned about what part, they can specify Marietta. I think the same can be said for my previous examples, like Lithonia, Ellenwood, Stockbridge, Union City, Douglasville, Doraville, Dunwoody, Tucker, Chamblee, etc.
But if someone from Alpharetta, Johns Creek, or even Kennesaw, were visiting another state, I think they would/should just say that they live in Alpharetta or Johns Creek — “just north of Atlanta”, or “Kennesaw, just north of Marietta” etc.
Similarly, I think people from Long Beach just say they live in Long Beach rather than saying they live in Los Angeles. After all, the entirety of North Georgia (virtually a third of the state) can’t all claim Atlanta, right?
With that said, in terms of the city versus suburb debate, I totally understand your point in terms of infill. This also speaks to the point that not everyone moving to the suburbs wants a massive home and lots of land. Even people in the suburbs like walkable areas with close-by amenities, etc.
However, I also view Alpharetta, Johns Creek, Milton, etc. as ground zero for much of the anti-Atlanta sentiment that we have been discussing. As I type this, I guess it is more accurate to describe it as an “anti-city of Atlanta” sentiment more so than just an “anti-city” sentiment. I would imagine this sentiment may be stronger in the far exurbs like Canton, Cumming, Acworth, Dallas, etc. But, to me, those areas are so far that they have little to no bearing on Atlanta or the closer suburbs. I suppose it is like residents of White Plains, NY being concerned about Manhattan. But I also feel this disconnect allows for any negative perceptions to grow because there’s little actual interaction between the exurbs and Atlanta really (other than local news, social media, and the like).
I’ve learned from posters on here that some would like to consider Alpharetta the hub of a twin city like Dallas/Fort Worth. This goes back to a point I made a little earlier about the desire to create mixed-use/walkable environments like Atlanta without actually being in Atlanta. But I think of the aversion to living in the City of Atlanta comes from a negative perception about Atlanta in of itself — and what it stands for — not necessarily urbanism in general.
Just like with the Long Beach/Los Angeles example. I would imagine Long Beach residents have a similar lifestyle than Los Angelinos, but those who live there would rather not be in Los Angeles — but they also do not claim Los Angles either (to a certain extent). Nor do I think they diss/avoid it as much as the northern arc of the Atlanta metro disses /avoids the City of Atlanta — but I could be wrong…
But to be fair, there are people who live in the city proper that never travel south of I-20 or people on the eastside of the city proper that never cross over to the westside. So it is really the same issue, just on a micro scale.
Not sure if I’m explaining this well, and I know this is all subjective. But, as a local, this is just how I interpret it. To be honest, when I was growing up, the general opinion was that if you couldn’t get there by MARTA, you were not in “Atlanta”. But, of course, this was decades ago… Nowadays, I pretty much view “Metro Atlanta” as the five core counties. Outside of that is pretty out there or “out of town” in my opinion. The surrounding counties might be considered the “North Georgia/Metro Atlanta region” perhaps, but not necessarily part of “Atlanta” per se….
Johns Creek, Alpharetta, and Gwinnett County are all Atlanta now. People who live in these areas say they're from Atlanta when they go out of town. I know I do.
Everybody knows Atlanta is one big suburb, don't know what this back and forth is for
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