People who think their 110hp Civics Are Fast (vehicle, SUV, fuel)
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Unfortunately, you can say the same thing about muscle cars that were gutted for drag racing and driven on the street. Saw those all over the place in the '70s. Jacked up, with slapper bars on them, bolt on Harwood hood scoops, poorly tuned tunnel rams or overcarbed crap.
It's just young guys doing what they've always done.
The difference is that musclecars were built with going fast in mind, right from the factory. Econoboxes weren't. As an example, people often asked me, right after I bought my '05 GTO, what I'd done to it. I'd say some version of "I bought a 400HP/400TQ, sub 5 second to 60, sub 13 second 1/4 mile car for a reason. Then I drove it home."
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Originally Posted by Merc63
You obviously have never been to a road race track or an autocross course, where small FWD sport coupes and hatchbacks have been successful since the early '80s.
Getting kind of tired of supposed automotive enthusiasts who really have no clue about what cars are good at what, and think only musclecars can be fast.
You're comparing cars heavily modified for racing with cars covered in bolt-on nonsense. Two different animals.
I do agree that people are free to do whatever mods they like. Just don't expect to be taken seriously against cars that are actually high-performers, rather than just looking high performance.
The problem is that these forums aren't just filled with automotive enthusiasts. There are definitely many of them here (myself, Merc63, many others, people who generally appreciate automobiles of just about any kind) but there are also plenty of narrow minded muscle car enthusiasts or Murica enthusiasts who simply don’t know right from wrong other than the fact that they only like muscle cars or only like American cars. It's an ignorant perspective and really a cancer to the automotive world. The same goes for people who only like Euro or Asian imports.
I don't own a Civic and they certainly aren't my preference (not too fond of the sound of naturally aspirated fours either) but I've seen plenty of well built cars that can handle their own for the task that they were built to handle. They can be built relatively cheaply to handle very well in the curves which is a hoot for tight road courses or mountain driving. Due to their weight, 300hp goes a long way in the older cars and it isn't terribly difficult to get to that figure. Hell even 200hp in the twisties should be decent.
Last edited by iTsLiKeAnEgG; 12-18-2013 at 09:45 AM..
You obviously have never been to a road race track or an autocross course, where small FWD sport coupes and hatchbacks have been successful since the early '80s.
Getting kind of tired of supposed automotive enthusiasts who really have no clue about what cars are good at what, and think only musclecars can be fast.
Well you would be wrong about that....
Sure you can slap lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig. And besides, what does driving around in a parking lot in second gear have to do with real world roads? Nothing.
Virtually no sports cars over $30,000 (and many under) are FWD. There are no FWD Porsches, BMWs, Ferraris, or Mercedes? Why is the Corvette, 370z, RX8, MX5, Mustang, Camaro, etc RWD?
What about F1, Nascar, LeMans/ALMS, CART, etc all are RWD
And as far as muscle cars go, they are mostly a one trick pony as well. Straight line racers, but at least they have suitable engines driving the correct end of the car. Ever seen FWD muscle car? Ever wonder why that is? Remember how physics works?
But you're right... I don't consider myself an automotive enthusiast. I'm a RACING enthusiast (road course). And in the real world of car racing 95% of all classes of racing are RWD or AWD. Ever wonder why that is?
Ever seen a FWD sport bike or dirt bike? Ever wonder why that is?
Ever wonder why the miata is the best selling sports car in history? What was that FWD convertible that was supposed to compete with the miata back in 89'? I can't even remember who made it ... think it lasted 2 years? Hell, I can't even find a trace of it on the net.
I feel like half this forum is full of high school freshman.
I have always been one to pay my dues to anyone who builds a car that they want to built. I'm not talking about torched springs, removing the hubcaps to roll on steelies, and a fart can. That's not building a car.
Brand bias, genre bias is silly. I personally have always been a domestic guy, I am not even 30 yet, and I have owned 8 F-Bodies, 3 Fox bodies, 2 MK3 Supras, 600RR, a prelude sI, trucks, several Jeeps etc.
When I was in High School I was the "There is no replacement for displacement, take your honda to the Junkyard", guy. The funny thing is, as you grow up, build your own cars, have friends who build their cars, get involved in the industry, meet people from all walks of life who have different taste in cars but are still car guys and passionate about it...This is when you start to realize there's more to being an enthusiast than the particular type of car you are passionate about.
Give respect where respect is due. I've been drag racing since I was 15, started by learning the principles of drag racing in a 14 second 3rd gen Camaro. Great car's to learn in BTW. By the time I was 22 I was running consistent bottom 10s in a car that I built myself, and worked my ass off to build.
Start spending every weekend at the track and you really begin to appreciate stuff that is different.
Every group of car guys has people that make you just want to bury your head and not be associated with them. But that's the great thing about car guys...The ignorance will fade as you learn, you become more humble and more appreciative of things that are just effin cool.
Now I have a 2 year old, racing is on hold for a few years, but I'm in the beginning process of building a 4x4 Astro Van..Why? Because, Why Not!?
Sure you can slap lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig. And besides, what does driving around in a parking lot in second gear have to do with real world roads? Nothing.
Have you ever driven on roads with tight corners (whether mostly flat or mountain roads)? 2nd and 3rd gear is basically all you need on such roads because handling is king here. So what does it have to do with real world roads? Quite a bit actually.
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Originally Posted by Colorado^
And as far as muscle cars go, they are mostly a one trick pony as well. Straight line racers, but at least they have suitable engines driving the correct end of the car. Ever seen FWD muscle car? Ever wonder why that is? Remember how physics works?
It's actually very simple to build the motor on a FWD car that will give many muscle cars a hard time (it happens on a regular basis). The fact that they are FWD does little to impede that.
I prefer RWD myself but I'd be very ignorant to believe that a FWD car is incapable of giving me a hard time. Hell, look at the Dodge SRT4's, FWD and there are plenty of them putting down great times. Sure they are miserable cheap rattle traps but they will spank many a car without issue.
Have you ever driven on roads with tight corners (whether mostly flat or mountain roads)? 2nd and 3rd gear is basically all you need on such roads because handling is king here. So what does it have to do with real world roads? Quite a bit actually.
No, never have. We don't have mountains in Colorado .
Even the tightest of mountain roads are nothing like the low speeds of the majority of autocross courses (which are filled with slaloms and 90 deg corners). I mean come on man, they fit a 1min course into a PARKING LOT for crying out loud. Nothing like mountain roads... and I LIVE in the mountains.
At best you get to the top of second gear in the straight on an autocross. They would be first gear courses expect you can't get back into first, so you have to leave it in second.
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Originally Posted by iTsLiKeAnEgG
It's actually very simple to build the motor on a FWD car that will give many muscle cars a hard time (it happens on a regular basis). The fact that they are FWD does little to impede that.
And it's very simple to build a muscle car than will give a (built) FWD car a hard time. Lets compare apples to apples eh?
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Originally Posted by iTsLiKeAnEgG
I prefer RWD myself but I'd be very ignorant to believe that a FWD car is incapable of giving me a hard time. Hell, look at the Dodge SRT4's, FWD and there are plenty of them putting down great times. Sure they are miserable cheap rattle traps but they will spank many a car without issue.
They have to use racing slicks to get any sort of grip off the line. And just because you CAN do something doesn't mean it's the right way, or best way to do something.
Apples to apples. Same weight, driver skill and HP. RWD will get off the line faster every time, unless we're talking low hp cars. The more HP we add to the equation the greater the advantage for the RWD car. It's simple physics and you can't argue with physics.
Bottom line is you can buy "FWD sucks" t-shirts all day long. No one makes a "RWD sucks" t-shirt. Ever wonder why that is?
Actually its closer to about 65-75%. FWD racers have done pretty good, even farher back than the Minis of the 60s in rally.
Btw. You come off as a huge douche.
And FWD racing cars have nothing to do with people trying to street race out of their "weight class". Almost every weekend a FWD beats a RWD somewhere in a REAL race. One of my buddies did it this year in WC in a Kia against well built race cars like Mustangs and Camaros.
Yes RWD or QWD is more optimal. But FWD can and do run with and beat those sometimes.
QUOTE=Colorado^;32659936]
But you're right... I don't consider myself an automotive enthusiast. I'm a RACING enthusiast (road course). And in the real world of car racing 95% of all classes of racing are RWD or AWD. Ever wonder why that is? [/quote]
Actually its closer to about 65-75%. FWD racers have done pretty good, even farher back than the Minis of the 60s in rally.
Btw. You come off as a huge douche.
And FWD racing cars have nothing to do with people trying to street race out of their "weight class". Almost every weekend a FWD beats a RWD somewhere in a REAL race. One of my buddies did it this year in WC in a Kia against well built race cars like Mustangs and Camaros.
Yes RWD or QWD is more optimal. But FWD can and do run with and beat those sometimes.
QUOTE=Colorado^;32659936]
But you're right... I don't consider myself an automotive enthusiast. I'm a RACING enthusiast (road course). And in the real world of car racing 95% of all classes of racing are RWD or AWD. Ever wonder why that is?
Lol... at least I'm not the one making personal insults whist hiding behind the keyboard (which, judging by your post, you've yet to master).
Sure you can slap lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig. And besides, what does driving around in a parking lot in second gear have to do with real world roads? Nothing.
A lot, actually, as I've built a lot of fun street cars by using autocross and road racing tecniques, especially for stock classes or "street prepared" calsses.
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Virtually no sports cars over $30,000 (and many under) are FWD.
So. Are only expensive cars allowed to be fun on backroads and road race tracks?
Quote:
What about F1, Nascar, LeMans/ALMS, CART, etc all are RWD
Rules, dude, Ever hear of them? If you're a racing enthusiast, you should have, and understand why cars are built he way they are for racing within rules structures. Why are they RWD when AWD has been proven to be superior even in road racing? AWD got banned in pretty much every road racing class it was allowed in for road racing. And it took over WRC. If RWD was so ****ing good, why isn't it king of WRC and why would AWD have gotten banned from road racing?
So let's get off the RWD is best because certain racing classes use it. OK?
FWD works just fine in many road racing and slalom racing arenas, and works just fine on twisty backroads, too. I've driven RWD and FWD back to back on the same twisty courses and saw it first hand. Small, light, agile cars dont' need 400 hp and don't need RWD to be fun and agile and work just fine.
You're comparing cars heavily modified for racing with cars covered in bolt-on nonsense. Two different animals.
I'm posting stock class and street prepared cars, cars with things like bolt on swaybars and springs and shocks. That's all it takes. I can make a FWD Civic or VW Golf have oversteer as it's basic nature just by bolting on a different rear swaybar. Many peopel asked when Ford started making RWD Contours when I was autocrossing my SVT Contour as it would oversteer getting on the power coming out of a corner. the REASON it did ti was completely different than a RWD car, but you DROVE the car exactly the same as a RWD car with the same inputs at the same times. You don't need to be "heavily modified" to be fast and successful in autocross and road racing with a light, agile, FWD car like a Civic, or a VW GTi or my MINI Cooper.
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Remember how physics works?
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