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When we sell a vehicle, we figure the reasonable market value. Advertise it at 20% - 30% below private party market with no negotiations. We disclose everything we know is wrong with it (usually very little). Some of our vehicles are driven hard, we disclose that if it is true (those are the ones at 30% below market). We disclose it has various electronic systems that have been removed, so there are extra wiring harnesses all over the place. The last thing we remove is the tracking device which allows us to disable the vehicle if it is not returned as agreed, or if it is taken somewhere we did not agree. (similar to Lojac or on-star). Otherwise it is take it or leave it - period.
They can come to one of our subsidiaries during business hours and leave a deposit and license/insurance information and test drive it, take it to an approved mechanic, show it to their girlfriend or mother. . . . Then they can either buy it or leave. We do not respond to offers, we do not discuss offers, we do not accept offers. We do not sell vehicles to anyone who arranges to meet our people and does not show up. We do not sell vehicles to anyone under 21. Some people feel compelled to negotiate everything so they can feel like they got a deal - they can go elsewhere. They will end up paying more. We always sell every vehicle quickly. It is worth it to us to cut 20% off the value in order to avoid wasting time. We will meet a buyer once to give them keys for a test drive, and once to give them the title. We will not waste any more time on it than that.
To save time, we wait until we have several vehicles to sell at once. That way we can assign someone to deal with all of them for one to two weeks and not lose a lot of time on it. We almost always sell them in a week. Usually within a couple of days. The used vehicle market is very strong.
Many of our vehicles are bought used. We usually need them in a hurry, so if the price is reasonable, we pay it. You waste more value in time negotiating than you save on the price. If the vehicle you want sells while you are negotiating, then you have to start all over looking again. Time is valuable.
And this method is clearly the way the industry is going no? I really would like to know. The point of this thread was not to get into an argument with other posters. I need to know if I am losing out on cars by trying the old, possibly outdated, approach of negotiating?
Last edited by DaveinMtAiry; 05-04-2014 at 03:19 PM..
I have acknowledged that the dealer is in business to make money. I never once implied that I was smarter or slicker than the dealer or that I was better at car purchases than someone like you. My point is that I am better at negotiating than the average buyer and my method of purchase has resulted in solid cars over and over again for me at a lower pice than the average buyer pays. If you are going to continue to hurl insults at me please try and keep up, it's not asking too much.
From the beginning of this thread you have attempted to discredit my method of purchasing cars. First you went to the possiblity that the cars are flood damaged or whatever. Maybe you consider my position a slight at your profession, that's never been my intent. I'm just pointing out that I've had great success in negotiating lower prices and that the new fixed pricing trend is messing me up. I honestly can't understand why that bothers you so much.
You've totally intentionally misread every post I've made to find a way to be offended.
No such intent was made here, but I did try in many different ways to explain to you that you don't have any purchasing advantage over any other retail buyer who also plays the game at the dealerships by negotiating a lower price than the asked/advertised price.
The bottom line is that no dealer is going to sell you a popular in demand car below his minimum profit margin to maintain his business. You keep acknowledging that, but then claim that you do a better job of negotiating than the "average" used car buyer.
That's pure BullShi*, you're no better with your tales of comparison shopping than the next guy who is seeking the best deal he can get. 99%+ of the used (and new, too) car buyers are in a negotiating situation. I've spent enough time around the business to know that very few used car buyers ever walk onto the lot expecting to pay full retail asked price at a typical used car dealership.
The resources you use are no better than what is available to the next guy.
You've indicated absolutely nothing about your car buying experience that remotely suggests that you're getting a better deal with your palaver than the next guy.
The only thing you've consistently been satisfied with is that you "got a deal". More power to you. The dealership satisfied your car buying experiences with the car you wanted at the price you could justify and made you feel good about it.
Try to have a nice day. Buy a car at a price point you can justify and enjoy the haggle and games so that you can walk out the door feeling good about feeding your ego and your alleged superior negotiating skills. That's part of the art of the deal in a dealership ... keeping you a happy camper with what you purchased and the price. Know that you're dealing with pro's who can feed your ego all day long to the maximum possible extent ... and sell you a car in the process. To them it's only a game and they might as well be entertained in the process; to you, it's all about you being superior to the "average" buyer and stroking your ego about being so superior. Only ... you aren't, you're just another player that walks through the door and is their challenge for the minute to "read" you, qualify you, and put you into the position where you're signing that sales order with a smile on your face.
They're not there to pis* you off and screw up a deal. They're there to sell cars. CSI is the name of the game. If they read your ego trip as easily in person as we can see demonstrated here, then you're a really easy mark. Understand, that's NOT AN INSULT: it's a reality about the selling game. Unless and until you understand what the selling game is all about, you're gonna' continue to take offense that you're anything but an average used car buyer. That's not my problem ... it's all yours if you choose to make it so.
I just bought my car recently, tell you how I did it...
Obviously, I researched my vehicle, and when I decided on my year/make/model I did online searches as to which dealer(s) had the car I wanted. I called to confirm that the actual car WAS in stock (avoid the bait-and-switch crap). So I went out to the dealer but I AVOIDED walking into the showroom - salesmen are like sharks, they smell a potential meal! If I were at, say, a Honda dealer, and some salesman approached me on the lot, I'd just politely say that my car was being fixed in the Service area. "Oh, just waitin' on my Accord to be done" (Mentioning that I have a make/model of the car they sell). Meanwhile, I've already (again, thru research) got the name(s) of the General Manager and the owner of the dealership. Once I've found the car I was seeking, I casually strolled into the place and ask for the GM and/or owner. When he makes his presence, I introduced myself, and get right to the point - I'm interested in (Stock #, Year/Make/Model/VIN) and will buy it today IF we can reach a reasonable price!!! Tell you what, I started this on a Monday, and 24 hours, and 3 cars later, I bought my car at a great price (the other 2 were duds).
I'm kind of bummed. Buying a used car was in my wheelhouse, I would simply contact the dealer via email and offer them 8%-10% less than the asking price, explaining that I am buying a car TODAY. I would explain that I have another car I could get at my price but in a color I didn't like. I would would buy their car if they could match the price. If not I'll simply buy the other car. It has been very effective over the years, the key obviously being I was on the way if they could get to the number.
But lately I've been looking into cars and dealers are simply not willing to come off their internet price, which is lower than the price on the windshield. Is this a pattern now? If so I blame CarMax.
I bought a used car last year (a 2011 Cadillac CTS) and they said they don't haggle anymore due to the Internet. Since everyone posts their lowest prices and can easily see the price for every car in a fifty mile radius, they have no room. I guess its not great, but I am also not great at haggling. For my types, it works out. I'd rather research and pick the lowest price then try to deal with a salesman.
Not me. Email or on the phone I am in control, once on the lot they have control. Besides I do a search up to 100 miles. I"m not driving to Pennsylvania until I know we have a deal in place.
Not true at all. They have zero incentive to offer you a good price over email/phone. In person, they know you're there, and you'll walk if they don't.
Not true at all. They have zero incentive to offer you a good price over email/phone. In person, they know you're there, and you'll walk if they don't.
I don't know about that. Seems to me on the phone their goal is to get you in the shop to make a deal, that's their incentive. On the phone I seem to have the control of hanging up, which is certainly easier than getting in my car and driving 100 miles home.
Again I understand the dealership is there to make money. And if they have $13,500 in the car they can't possibly sell it for $14,200. My goal is to find the dealer who got the car for $12,400 and the only way to do that is from home as it may take 3-4 contacts.
You've totally intentionally misread every post I've made to find a way to be offended.
No such intent was made here, but I did try in many different ways to explain to you that you don't have any purchasing advantage over any other retail buyer who also plays the game at the dealerships by negotiating a lower price than the asked/advertised price.
The bottom line is that no dealer is going to sell you a popular in demand car below his minimum profit margin to maintain his business. You keep acknowledging that, but then claim that you do a better job of negotiating than the "average" used car buyer.
That's pure BullShi*, you're no better with your tales of comparison shopping than the next guy who is seeking the best deal he can get. 99%+ of the used (and new, too) car buyers are in a negotiating situation. I've spent enough time around the business to know that very few used car buyers ever walk onto the lot expecting to pay full retail asked price at a typical used car dealership.
The resources you use are no better than what is available to the next guy.
You've indicated absolutely nothing about your car buying experience that remotely suggests that you're getting a better deal with your palaver than the next guy.
The only thing you've consistently been satisfied with is that you "got a deal". More power to you. The dealership satisfied your car buying experiences with the car you wanted at the price you could justify and made you feel good about it.
Try to have a nice day. Buy a car at a price point you can justify and enjoy the haggle and games so that you can walk out the door feeling good about feeding your ego and your alleged superior negotiating skills. That's part of the art of the deal in a dealership ... keeping you a happy camper with what you purchased and the price. Know that you're dealing with pro's who can feed your ego all day long to the maximum possible extent ... and sell you a car in the process. To them it's only a game and they might as well be entertained in the process; to you, it's all about you being superior to the "average" buyer and stroking your ego about being so superior. Only ... you aren't, you're just another player that walks through the door and is their challenge for the minute to "read" you, qualify you, and put you into the position where you're signing that sales order with a smile on your face.
They're not there to pis* you off and screw up a deal. They're there to sell cars. CSI is the name of the game. If they read your ego trip as easily in person as we can see demonstrated here, then you're a really easy mark. Understand, that's NOT AN INSULT: it's a reality about the selling game. Unless and until you understand what the selling game is all about, you're gonna' continue to take offense that you're anything but an average used car buyer. That's not my problem ... it's all yours if you choose to make it so.
You started into this thread by attacking me and my buying method. Your posts then turned into 9 paragraph lectures as you used terms such as "smug" to describe me. If you can not figure out why your posts were offensive then I really have wasted time trying to talk to someone who is simply not very bright.
Last edited by DaveinMtAiry; 05-05-2014 at 05:12 AM..
I don't know about that. Seems to me on the phone their goal is to get you in the shop to make a deal, that's their incentive. On the phone I seem to have the control of hanging up, which is certainly easier than getting in my car and driving 100 miles home.
Again I understand the dealership is there to make money. And if they have $13,500 in the car they can't possibly sell it for $14,200. My goal is to find the dealer who got the car for $12,400 and the only way to do that is from home as it may take 3-4 contacts.
There's no way that you can "make a phone call" and KNOW what the dealer paid for a car.
Even if you find the dealer that paid less for the car, they have no obligation to disclose to you what they paid for it or any motivation to sell it to you for LESS than the PREVAILING MARKET price they believe they can get for it. They've got a database which tells them what the market is of actual real transactions, you only have a KBB or NADA blue book or similar which is a reporting system skewed to the dealer's advantage.
The fallacy of your thinking is that a dealer is going to pass along to you the marginal saving in cost that he may have in a car. There's no motivation on their part to do so. If the dealer bought the car "right", then they see it as an opportunity to make more money. That's part of the auto dealer paradigm: you make your money on the inventory buying side of the equation. You work on cost plus profit, not on retail downward.
Your historic approach to car buying has been flawed in that regard. You think you're a winner, a top negotiator because you got a discount off of retail asked price ... and any dealer (except for the fixed price outfits) will be happy to play into your buying model. The reality is the "smart" buyer works on the premise of wholesale cost plus a profit to the dealer. There's nothing new about that buying concept; even outfits like Consumer Reports have advised their readership to do so for decades.
PS: the dealers are working on larger margins than the examples you cite. But they have no incentive to back off their price points on popular hot sellers in the marketplace right now, such as the car you've chosen to look at. It's an interesting market on these cars at this time, because there's not much price point advantage in buying used over a new car if you are buying for the long term service life of the vehicle where the initial depreciation is amortized over a long time and you get the advantage of a new car/warranty and all components have a full service life ahead of them.
There's no way that you can "make a phone call" and KNOW what the dealer paid for a car.
Even if you find the dealer that paid less for the car, they have no obligation to disclose to you what they paid for it or any motivation to sell it to you for LESS than the PREVAILING MARKET price they believe they can get for it. They've got a database which tells them what the market is of actual real transactions, you only have a KBB or similar which is a flawed reporting system skewed to the dealer's advantage.
The fallacy of your thinking is that a dealer is going to pass along to you the marginal saving in cost that he may have in a car. There's no motivation on their part to do so. If the dealer bought the car "right", then they see it as an opportunity to make more money. That's part of the auto dealer paradigm: you make your money on the inventory buying side of the equation. You work on cost plus profit, not on retail downward.
Your historic approach to car buying has been flawed in that regard. You think you're a winner, a top negotiator because you got a discount off of retail asked price ... and any dealer (except for the fixed price outfits) will be happy to play into your buying model. The reality is the "smart" buyer works on the premise of wholesale cost plus a profit to the dealer. There's nothing new about that buying concept; even outfits like Consumer Reports have advised their readership to do so for decades. It's where the automotive consultant buying services have their margins, how they can make money providing a service where you can buy a car for less than you'd typically be able to negotiate an OTD price for. From what you've posted, you sound like you could save yourself time and money by availing yourself of their professional services for your next car purchase.
Oh I never expect them to reveal what they paid. But if I call 4 dealers and 3 of them can not get to my number but the 4th one can it's my understanding that they have less invested in the car and therefore can offer a lower price while still maintaining the margin they need to keep their business profitable (cost plus profit as you said).
Again I never implied that I was getting over on the dealers, they are pros and I'm not. I'm just saying if you contact several ahead of time you have a better chance at getting a lower price because you will eventually find a dealer that paid less for the comparable car then the other dealers and/or has had the car on his lot for 4 weeks and "it's got to go" (another quote from a dealer on the truck I bought). Did the car sell for less because the car was flawed? No it's because it's what that particular car sold for on that day at that particular auction. And there is still no question in my mind that I have been better at this then the average buyer. I had 2 dealers tell me this after the deal was signed. Again not trying to outsmart the dealer, just seeing if they want to move a car today that they got for less that has been taking up space on their lot.
But you are probably right, the Civic I'm looking at simply does not stay on a lot for a month so I"m thinking I'll need to pay asking price.
"Oh I never expect them to reveal what they paid. But if I call 4 dealers and 3 of them can not get to my number but the 4th one can it's my understanding that they have less invested in the car and therefore can offer a lower price while still maintaining the margin they need to keep their business profitable (cost plus profit as you said). "
Totally False Premise.
The margins are so much greater than your perception of them that when the dealer offers over the phone to match your lower price, he's simply playing a game as to how likely you'll actually turn up on his lot to be a buyer. What happens when you get there is only a new opportunity for them to make a deal. Virtually any of the dealers could match your phone call price point; the question is, how convincing are you that you'll actually come to their dealership?
When you tell them that you've got a comparable car located at a given price point that you'll pay, the dealer has to wonder ... if that deal is acceptable to you, then what is your motivation to walk away from that one and do business with him? You're not giving him any warm fuzzies that you're serious or reliable about being a buyer. Many dealers will simply not put much effort into what you're presenting over the phone.
I know that if you called me about a given car and told me that you had a deal worked out on another at a price that was lower than I believed I could sell my merchandise for in a reasonable amount of time, I'd suggest that you buy the other car (and leave me alone to deal with the paying customer on my lot who I'm working with).
Anyway, it's been a giggle to get you to reveal your viewpoints on the car buying process ... it's too bad you have so many remarkable misconceptions about the merchandise (a commodity? indeed), the sales process, selling pyschology, price points and marketing, market demand, and what professionals do to make a sale. And it's been very informative as you persist in finding offense in the truth instead of trying to learn something about how you spend your money on a major purchase. Try to have a nice day and buy what you want at a price that you can justify/afford. The dealer will thank you for your business; everything else is extraneous and he couldn't care less about your palaver. All that matters is the merchandise and the money in light of a good CSI.
Allow me to make one final Point: Your persistence in finding offense, in getting your ego hurt, your taking everything as a personal insult and affront ... is the KEY to your INABILITY to ever possibly be a good or successful NEGOTIATOR in spite of your high level of self esteem. We've only been talking anonymously here about buying a piece of merchandise and you can't stay focused on the realities. You're a dealer's dream customer ... an emotional buyer, poorly informed. You're ready for the plucking, pardner, and the dealer showroom you walk into will be more than happy to accomodate you and have you happy to spend your money with them. Enjoy!
Last edited by sunsprit; 05-05-2014 at 12:36 PM..
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