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Hi,
I'm wondering if anyone can advice me.
I have a '97 subaru outback.
I bought it used in 2000 and i've taken excellent care of it since then.
I've had the same mechanic for the past 5 years and they've always done good work with my car and i've never had a complaint.
2 weeks ago i took it in for its 30K tune-up, oil change, etc.
The first thing i noticed when i left the lot of the mechanics was that it didn't feel "smooth".
Whenever i get a tune-up, oil change, etc. and i leave the shop, my car always feels better ... smoother ... humming.
This time it didn't feel that way and i thought .... hmmmmmm, that's interesting.
Then, when i got out onto the road i noticed when stopped at a light that the car was vibrating ... shaking.
Sometimes it is subtle and other times quite obvious.
Also, at speeds of say, 25 - 35 mph, the car just doesn't feel right .... it's kind of rough but not like an idle rough but like it's not running efficiently.
It's hard to explain.
And, when i take it out on the highway, it shutters a lot but when i take my foot off the gas, it subsides.
And this didn't happen until after the work they did during the 30K service.
So yesterday, i took the car back in and explained what was going on.
After test driving it with me, one of the mechanics went to work on it and some hours later said that it was just a spark plug with some grease on it and he cleaned it and said that he took the car for a test drive and it was fine ... totally smooth.
So, i went and got the car, took it on the road, noticed it still didn't feel right and then onto the highway and it's still doing the same thing!
Again, the car didn't have this issue until i got that 30K service so, it's obvious to me, that someone did something to create this problem.
I don't know cars at all so i feel really confused.
They've been great mechanics and i always felt them to be skillful and honest.
But now i'm concerned because it seems that they've created a problem but are not owning up to it.
I've just put $600 into the car and i don't want to pay for something more that they caused.
Any advice on what this problem could be? how they could have caused it? and how i should handle the situation at this point?
I want to maintain good relations with them but i've lost some trust and faith.
Thanks if anyone can give me some awareness here.
As a retired mechanic and parts house owner... there are many possibilites.
I have sold spk plugs and people would return saying that a plug or so was not any good. Turned out that they had dropped one and the gap was closed causing a misfire at higher speed.
A grease on the plug is POOR excuse. (if true could cause a arc jumping)
Always the chance of a bad plug. (rare but possible)
Possibility of a wire knocked loose and making a poor connection.
Timing off a couple of degrees. (possible)
Arcing in a spk plug wire. (always possible)
Very easy to create a problem while touching/moving things in the process of a tune up. Has happened to me as well as other mechanics one time or another over the yrs.
Be nice to them an maybe mention a couple of possibilites I mentioned. We are all honorable and can make a honest mistake that needs prompt attention. None of us need bad reputation. Bear in mind that you was with them for five yrs...maybe a newer employee is the problem.
These cars have OBDII computerized engine controls and diagnostics. So, if there's a new ignition/FI system problem, it should set a trouble code for the cylinder that is mis-firing and that code can be read by a reader from the plug connector at the dash.
Given that these cars have extremely tight clearance between the heads and the inner fender wells, it wouldn't be uncommon for a spark plug wire end (which is very long, to accomodate the hemispherical combustion chamber of the 4-valve head) to be damaged in replacing a sparkplug. Tugging, twisting, bending, and the otherwise rough handling of the wire may have done it in ... and it's a very difficult situation to avoid, especially on the back sparkplugs on either side.
In my own Subie cars with this motor, I won't replace the 'plugs except every 100,000 miles ... which they go very easily without distress ... and because I don't want to deal with the potential for the damage to the ignition wires to each cylinder. Also, these wires can get damaged at the coils when servicing the car.
Bottom line ... if the car is misfiring and running poorly, the computer will set a trouble code and the shop will then be directed to the problem source. You can go to a Checker or Advance auto parts store and buy a very inexpensive code reader with the harness plug adapter for your Subie and download the codes yourself. A higher priced code reader will include the code database so you can read it all right there.
The shop may ... or may not ... have been at "fault" in creating a problem; sometimes, you simply cannot remove the plug wire without it being damaged, no matter how careful you are with aged wires. What they do at this point is what separates the men from the boys. Personally, I don't buy the "grease on the sparkplug" explanation, but I wasn't there, either ....
There is one other possibility here, and that is that the head gasket problem on this family of motors has started to surface, and you're getting coolant into the combustion chamber, which is fouling a plug. This happens after the motor has been run up to temperature, and then starts to cool down when you shut if down. There's still pressure in the cooling system, and it will leak back into a combustion chamber. An early sign of this type of failure would be the coolant system being overpressurized in normal driving and blowing coolant out of the overflow tank and then the radiator, with higher than normal engine temps and later, overheating temps on the dash gauge.
At this point, I'd take it back to the shop and let them know that it's still not running "right", and ask that they scan if for codes as well as check the cooling system for any gases coming back up into the radiator (I use an old 2-gas ex gas analyzer to "sniff" the fumes, if any, coming out of the radiator). If they've been a trusted and reliable resource for all these years, my bet is that they'll still want to keep your business and customer satisfaction now, too.
As a retired mechanic and parts house owner... there are many possibilites.
I have sold spk plugs and people would return saying that a plug or so was not any good. Turned out that they had dropped one and the gap was closed causing a misfire at higher speed.
A grease on the plug is POOR excuse. (if true could cause a arc jumping)
Always the chance of a bad plug. (rare but possible)
Possibility of a wire knocked loose and making a poor connection.
Timing off a couple of degrees. (possible)
Arcing in a spk plug wire. (always possible)
Very easy to create a problem while touching/moving things in the process of a tune up. Has happened to me as well as other mechanics one time or another over the yrs.
Be nice to them an maybe mention a couple of possibilites I mentioned. We are all honorable and can make a honest mistake that needs prompt attention. None of us need bad reputation. Bear in mind that you was with them for five yrs...maybe a newer employee is the problem.
Steve
Thank you.
I appreciate that perspective.
And i am nice to them ... i like them very much and want to maintain good relations with them.
I've never had a problem with them and so this came as a bit of a shock ... I can understand if they made a mistake. It's jut that, so far, they seem to be dodging it.
I will call them in a few minutes and have another talk with them.
These cars have OBDII computerized engine controls and diagnostics. So, if there's a new ignition/FI system problem, it should set a trouble code for the cylinder that is mis-firing and that code can be read by a reader from the plug connector at the dash.
Given that these cars have extremely tight clearance between the heads and the inner fender wells, it wouldn't be uncommon for a spark plug wire end (which is very long, to accomodate the hemispherical combustion chamber of the 4-valve head) to be damaged in replacing a sparkplug. Tugging, twisting, bending, and the otherwise rough handling of the wire may have done it in ... and it's a very difficult situation to avoid, especially on the back sparkplugs on either side.
In my own Subie cars with this motor, I won't replace the 'plugs except every 100,000 miles ... which they go very easily without distress ... and because I don't want to deal with the potential for the damage to the ignition wires to each cylinder. Also, these wires can get damaged at the coils when servicing the car.
Bottom line ... if the car is misfiring and running poorly, the computer will set a trouble code and the shop will then be directed to the problem source. You can go to a Checker or Advance auto parts store and buy a very inexpensive code reader with the harness plug adapter for your Subie and download the codes yourself. A higher priced code reader will include the code database so you can read it all right there.
The shop may ... or may not ... have been at "fault" in creating a problem; sometimes, you simply cannot remove the plug wire without it being damaged, no matter how careful you are with aged wires. What they do at this point is what separates the men from the boys. Personally, I don't buy the "grease on the sparkplug" explanation, but I wasn't there, either ....
There is one other possibility here, and that is that the head gasket problem on this family of motors has started to surface, and you're getting coolant into the combustion chamber, which is fouling a plug. This happens after the motor has been run up to temperature, and then starts to cool down when you shut if down. There's still pressure in the cooling system, and it will leak back into a combustion chamber. An early sign of this type of failure would be the coolant system being overpressurized in normal driving and blowing coolant out of the overflow tank and then the radiator, with higher than normal engine temps and later, overheating temps on the dash gauge.
At this point, I'd take it back to the shop and let them know that it's still not running "right", and ask that they scan if for codes as well as check the cooling system for any gases coming back up into the radiator (I use an old 2-gas ex gas analyzer to "sniff" the fumes, if any, coming out of the radiator). If they've been a trusted and reliable resource for all these years, my bet is that they'll still want to keep your business and customer satisfaction now, too.
Thank you to you as well.
That's a lot of info for someone like me who knows almost nothing about cars but i appreciate it and will re-read it.
I didn't mention that i had my engine replace in 2005 due to the fact that the '97 outback had an issue with something or other ... i can't remember.
I remember the word "cracked block".
ANyway, they replaced my engine and did a fine job and the work is guaranteed for a very long time which is one of the reasons that i want to maintain a good relationship with them.
I'll make copies of your post and that of the other mechanic and take it with me as reference ... i hope that doesn't offend them.
and just a couple of follow up questions for the mechanics .... do you think it's o.k. to drive my car with this problem? am i risking further complications and/or damage?
i've gotta get it into the shop and get it taken care of but i may not be able to do that until next week.
also, i don't know if this is important, but they are not subaru specialists, ie; this isn't a subaru dealer.
and just a couple of follow up questions for the mechanics .... do you think it's o.k. to drive my car with this problem? am i risking further complications and/or damage?
i've gotta get it into the shop and get it taken care of but i may not be able to do that until next week.
also, i don't know if this is important, but they are not subaru specialists, ie; this isn't a subaru dealer.
In general driving a car that's not running right will cause some sort of excess wear and/or damage. With you being in CA and having to deal with smog inspections, anytime the engine isn't running right it's making life hard for the cat, which in turn won't live long and prosper...
In general driving a car that's not running right will cause some sort of excess wear and/or damage. With you being in CA and having to deal with smog inspections, anytime the engine isn't running right it's making life hard for the cat, which in turn won't live long and prosper...
yes, thank you ... and thanks for reminding me ... i need to get my car smog checked before the end of june.
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