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Looking at United's data, I see that about 45 airports are responsible for 97% of the mainline passengers. But they fly to 40 or 50 other airports with very little traffic.
For example, consider DETROIT, MI (DTW) which is a busy airport, but a DELTA hub. United advertises 6 destinations (and a code share with Lufthansa to Germany). But nearly all flights to these destinations are contracted out to United Express operators.
214 mi TORONTO, ON CANADA (YYZ)
234 mi CHICAGO, IL (ORD - O'HARE)
383 mi WASHINGTON, DC (IAD - DULLES)
487 mi NEW YORK/NEWARK, NJ (EWR - LIBERTY)
1,076 mi HOUSTON, TX (IAH - INTERCONTINENTAL)
1,120 mi DENVER, CO (DEN)
United (mainline) flies maybe one flight to Chicago and two to Houston per day.
We observe that United frequently loses money on it's domestic operations. In fact, the only valid business reason to have a domestic operation is to bring passengers to it's international flights.
Logically it seems silly to fly 97% of passengers to 45 airports, and fly to another 45 airports for 3% of your passengers. They could turn all these flights over to the Express operators (albeit they are limited 76 seats per plane by pilot's union agreement).
Is there something I am missing? Is it a prestige thing? Is it a government regulation? It is possible that I am mistaken in assuming that an entire airport operation to fly 3 jets per day must lose money.
They go where the people-and money is. Same as any other business. You think that when the wireless companies were putting up their cell towers they started with the 5000 population towns? No. They started with the five million ones. Why? The largest pool of potential customers in the smallest area. Same reason you won't find a Macys in the 15k population town of Tipton, CA where 50% of the town is unemployed and the other 50% is working seasonal minimum wage.
I'm not sure what "some airports" you're referring to. The six listed?
Or are you referring to the dozens of smaller airports? If that's the case, the reason is still for profits, whether or not they can fill the plane. Our county pays (guarantees) the commuter airline a certain income. I don't recall the exact figures, but I think the county budgets about $1 million annually to the airline. And I believe the state matches that, but the state's share is dwindling leaving the county the bulk to pay on its own. Of course that doesn't include the extra expense for airport operations, such as staffing the tower during the hours the airlines use the airport, 6 a.m.-11 p.m., iirc. (As a smaller, rural airport, a control tower wouldn't be needed here except that it's required for the airlines.)
Located in NE Wyoming, we have a handful of direct flights to/from Denver daily (4-5?) and two flights daily to/from Salt Lake City. Even with the subsidy from the state and county, ticket prices are substantially higher than what you'd expect. It's cheaper to fly r/t from Denver to NYC than r/t from our local airport to Denver (350 miles). Other than business fliers, most people will drive 150 miles from here to Rapid City or Casper, 250 miles to Billings, or 350 miles to Denver and fly from those locations to save money.
The Airline Deregulation Act, passed in 1978, gave airlines almost total freedom to determine which markets to serve domestically and what fares to charge for that service. The Essential Air Service (EAS) program was put into place to guarantee that small communities that were served by certificated air carriers before deregulation maintain a minimal level of scheduled air service. The Department’s mandate is to provide the EAS communities with access to the national air transportation system. As a general matter, this is accomplished by subsidizing two to four round trips a day -- with three being the norm -- with 19-seat aircraft to a major hub airport. The Department currently subsidizes commuter airlines to serve approximately 163 rural communities across the country that otherwise would not receive any scheduled air service.
I'm not sure what "some airports" you're referring to. The six listed?
Or are you referring to the dozens of smaller airports? If that's the case, the reason is still for profits, whether or not they can fill the plane.
No, I meant why does United fly to Denver? They can contract out to United Express for most of their business out of Detroit, so why set up an operation where they only fly to three times a day.
The Essential Air Service (EAS) program is for very little airports. The federal government subsidizes the flights are all served by tiny planes, not by mainline airports.
Logically, if you set up a business, hire personnel to man the counter, there is a certain fixed cost. If you only have a little bit of business you can't overcome the fixed costs. If United sets up a counter in Detroit to handle only 3 landings and 3 departures per day, it seems unlikely that they can make a profit.
No, I meant why does United fly to Denver? They can contract out to United Express for most of their business out of Detroit, so why set up an operation where they only fly to three times a day.
The Essential Air Service (EAS) program is for very little airports. The federal government subsidizes the flights are all served by tiny planes, not by mainline airports.
Logically, if you set up a business, hire personnel to man the counter, there is a certain fixed cost. If you only have a little bit of business you can't overcome the fixed costs. If United sets up a counter in Detroit to handle only 3 landings and 3 departures per day, it seems unlikely that they can make a profit.
I count 20+ UAL flights a day out of DTW
They fly to Denver because it's a hub, just like all the other airports you listed except for YYZ. The YYZ is a codeshare anyway on Air Canada, it's not a UAL flight.
They fly to Denver because it's a hub, just like all the other airports you listed except for YYZ. The YYZ is a codeshare anyway on Air Canada, it's not a UAL flight.
Sorry. I meant to type Detroit. Why does UAL mainline fly to DTW?
Those 20+ flights are all on UA express. Mainline is three flights per day.
Here are the number of people departing from the following airports on average per day on United MAINLINE flights (not counting Express flights)
IAH 26,947
ORD 25,330
SFO 24,029
EWR 19,111
DEN 18,252
LAX 15,335
IAD 9,726
------------------------- hubs
LAS 6,021
BOS 5,704
MCO 5,458
SEA 5,165
HNL 3,723
SAN 3,701
CLE 3,417
------------------------- flights to all 7 hubs (popular leisure or business locations
LGA 3,355
TPA 2,912
DCA 2,696
MSY 2,637
PHX 2,588
PDX 2,574
FLL 2,374
SNA 2,056
JFK 1,912
PHL 1,793
BWI 1,459
MIA 1,446
AUS 1,421
SMF 1,178
OGG 1,128
PIT 1,060
DFW 1,002
RSW 986
SAT 755
PBI 713
ANC 682
BDL 679
OMA 651
RDU 635
SJC 619
MSP 606
KOA 517
DSM 437
LIH 406
BUF 398
ATL 373
IND 308
At this point you have reached 97% of boardings for the average day.
The you end up with a whole bunch of airports with very few passengers boarding mainline flights. Is it cost effective to fly to all these airports to get such a small number of passengers? Some of these airports are not very small, but they are hubs of other airlines.
The EXPRESS pilots fly in much less expensive airframes, and salaries are much lower.
Maybe you should call Jeff and ask him.Why does it bother you so much?!?
It's a forum that is in theory for people interested in where the aviation industry is going. This industry consolidation to reduce competitive routes, and to consolidate airframes. To put all the Bombardiers into one company, and all the Embraers into another.
You have to ask how UA (our biggest international airline) is going to compete against airlines like Emirates with many times as many new widebodies. Even Japanese, chinese and Korean companies with much newer fleets.
Looking at UA financials for the last ten years, the domestic business is the biggest money sink. But you can't operate an international airline without a domestic feeder network.
Possibly Southwest will someday be the feeder network for an international UA. UA seems to lose out to Southwest on any domestic route anyway.
In the meantime, I thought someone could tell me why it is profitable to fly to so many airports and pick up such limited numbers of people. Wouldn't an airline that flies to 30 airports, and pays contracts to other airlines to bring it people from the other airports be more profitable?
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