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Yes, and here's an article from the BN about how the PSL's will affect other potions of the economy, as I have been saying.
How Bills stadium PSLs could mean less money for other local leisure venues
John Cimperman has little doubt that there will be ample Buffalo Bills fans willing to pony up to purchase personal seat licenses at the new Highmark Stadium by its opening in 2026.
But he wonders how the hefty prices that those fans will have to pay for those PSLs will affect their other spending, potentially leaving them with less money for concerts, restaurants and other types of activities and products they would typically use their discretionary dollars to purchase.
And Cimperman wonders how that will ultimately impact the regional economy, and for how long, especially since an outsized portion of the Bills season ticket base is made up of individual fans, rather than corporate buyers.
In a smaller market like Buffalo, there’s only so much discretionary income to go around, especially with the region's population barely growing. Other cities with faster-growing populations have a steadily expanding pool of discretionary income simply because more people are living and working there.
In Buffalo Niagara, however, the barely growing population means the pool of discretionary income is growing only about as fast as wages are rising.
So any new venture that grabs a piece of the discretionary spending pie is largely taking it away from other businesses that compete for the same pool of money.
It could mean season ticket holders, especially those on fixed incomes, will need to sacrifice something to offset the cost of their PSL, whether it is a few nights out for dinner a month, a show, other recreation or shopping at a local retailer.
“People are going to have to make some tough decisions,” said Cimperman, a longtime sports marketing professional. “It’s definitely going to affect different people in different ways. What a PSL will cost to a law firm sitting at the 50-yard line might be completely different from what it costs an average fan sitting in the end zone.”
"Cimperman said, if on average, fans must invest around $10,000 in a PSL to secure the rights to buy a season ticket, that means there will be approximately $500 million of disposable income that flows into the new stadium and is pulled out of the local economy"
Yes, and here's an article from the BN about how the PSL's will affect other potions of the economy, as I have been saying.
How Bills stadium PSLs could mean less money for other local leisure venues
John Cimperman has little doubt that there will be ample Buffalo Bills fans willing to pony up to purchase personal seat licenses at the new Highmark Stadium by its opening in 2026.
But he wonders how the hefty prices that those fans will have to pay for those PSLs will affect their other spending, potentially leaving them with less money for concerts, restaurants and other types of activities and products they would typically use their discretionary dollars to purchase.
And Cimperman wonders how that will ultimately impact the regional economy, and for how long, especially since an outsized portion of the Bills season ticket base is made up of individual fans, rather than corporate buyers.
In a smaller market like Buffalo, there’s only so much discretionary income to go around, especially with the region's population barely growing. Other cities with faster-growing populations have a steadily expanding pool of discretionary income simply because more people are living and working there.
In Buffalo Niagara, however, the barely growing population means the pool of discretionary income is growing only about as fast as wages are rising.
So any new venture that grabs a piece of the discretionary spending pie is largely taking it away from other businesses that compete for the same pool of money.
It could mean season ticket holders, especially those on fixed incomes, will need to sacrifice something to offset the cost of their PSL, whether it is a few nights out for dinner a month, a show, other recreation or shopping at a local retailer.
“People are going to have to make some tough decisions,” said Cimperman, a longtime sports marketing professional. “It’s definitely going to affect different people in different ways. What a PSL will cost to a law firm sitting at the 50-yard line might be completely different from what it costs an average fan sitting in the end zone.”
The problem is that a substantial amount of season ticket holders aren't even from the Buffalo area for one and people are viewing "market" from a narrow lens.
Second, given the first point, which has been proven by various sources as being the case, a good portion of the money is coming from outside of the area anyway into the Buffalo area due to many season ticket holders coming from the Rochester area, the Golden Horseshoe, CNY, etc.
Third, this means that Buffalo is actually getting money from nearby regions/areas into its economy.
Fourth, people that are going to pay for the PSLs likely know what they are signing up for and are people that either feel it is important to them or are willing to pay for them. So, this is going to come down to personal choice.
"In addition to the $850 million in public funds the Buffalo Bills are getting toward their new $1.7 billion stadium, the team is receiving a tax break worth tens of millions of dollars on the sale of personal seat licenses.
While ticket sales for Bills games are subject to sales tax, the stadium deal the team struck with the state is structured in a way that allows the Bills to avoid charging those taxes on the PSLs they are now selling to season ticket holders.
And with the team expecting to raise hundreds of millions of dollars from the sale of PSLs, dodging the 8.75% sales tax can quickly add up to an additional subsidy of $25 million or more.
It’s another way the state, which will provide $600 million of that taxpayer money for the project, is providing subsidies for the construction of a new stadium in Orchard Park, which is projected to be open in 2026.
The value of that sales tax exemption depends on how much money the team raises on the licenses being required for what will probably be more than 50,000 season tickets sold in the approximately 60,000-seat stadium.
The deal allows for PSLs to avoid sales taxes by technically making the state the entity that is selling the licenses, not the team. However, it is the team, and not the state, that is setting the prices for the PSLs and running the sales process. And team officials say the exemption benefits fans because they aren't charged sales taxes that, for a pair of $20,000 PSLs, would add another $3,500 to their bill.
That will increase the taxpayer proceeds that flow to Bills owners Terry and Kim Pegula from the personal seat license sales. All funds raised by the Bills for PSLs are required to go toward the building of the new stadium.
“Purchasers of PSLs are not charged sales tax and all revenue from the sale of PSLs goes directly into the project construction account; not to the Bills, as per the terms of the construction agreement,” said a spokesperson for the state.
For every $100 million in PSL revenue raised, that’s a tax break of approximately $8.75 million. If the Bills were to raise around $300 million in PSL revenue – a number that one expert The News spoke with believes is reasonable considering initial pricing for club seats and pricing projections for other seats, that would mean a savings of around $25 million.
The Bills are charging between $15,000 and $50,000 for club seat PSLs, but PSL prices for general admission seating have not yet been released. General admission sections will make up most of the seats in the new stadium.
According to a study the team circulated around two years ago, the pricing for general admission PSLs should start at around $500 for reserve seating and reach as high as $16,500 for premium seating.
The Pegulas’ portion of the project is now projected to be around $850 million with any further cost overruns being paid for by the team. The cost of the project has gone up from its original cost of $1.3 billion and some believe a portion of that could be paid for by raising PSL and ticket prices above the initial projections for the new stadium.
Not all of that estimated $850 million will come from the Pegulas, though. The team is raising $200 million toward that obligation through the NFL’s G-4 loan program, a forgivable loan paid back mostly through the visiting team’s share of certain ticket revenue. That, combined with the PSL sale proceeds, should cut the amount of money the Pegulas have to contribute from their own funds by at least 50%.
The revenue from the sale of PSLs will also allow the Bills to reimburse themselves and its agent in the project, sports marketing consultant Legends, for all costs and expenses incurred in the sale of PSLs, using a portion of the revenues raised through their sale.
Sales reps from Legends, hired specifically to sell seats and personal seat licenses at the new stadium to current season ticket holders and fans on the waiting list, also will receive commission on PSL sales.
PSL revenues will also pay for the operation of the Stadium Experience Center at the Walker Center in Amherst. It was built to not only get fans excited about the new stadium, but also sell them on renewing or becoming season ticket holders.
Additionally, some of the PSL revenue will pay for marketing efforts by the team in selling fans on being a season ticket member at the new stadium.
The Erie County Stadium Corp. is the state entity overseeing the PSL process, but it allowed the Bills to run the project sales and marketing and set pricing.
The Bills are required to deliver a report to the Stadium Corp. that includes a forecast for the PSLs to be sold, the amount of gross proceeds from sales, the aggregate PSL costs and commissions, the net proceeds from sales and a copy of all executed PSL sales agreements.
Purchasing a PSL will give fans ownership of that seat for the life of the 30-year lease in the new stadium. That also means they can also sell the PSL.
While PSLs are an unpopular added expense for some fans – even causing fans in some markets to give up their season tickets altogether – PSLs have become an integral part in the building of new stadiums for nearly three decades. PSLs have been used to help pay for more than half the new stadiums in the league and also have been used to help fund stadium renovations.
According to reports, PSLs raised $600 million toward the $5 billion SoFi Stadium in Los Angeles for the Rams and Chargers, which opened in 2020. The Raiders, who moved from Oakland to Las Vegas, used PSLs to raise about $400 million to help pay for their new stadium, where they also began play in 2020. Fans paid anywhere from $500 to $75,000 for a PSL."
So, this shows that there are levels to the PSL game, there is no sales tax and that this is a part of the costs for building new stadiums in the NFL.
Last edited by ckhthankgod; 04-27-2024 at 09:21 AM..
"According to reports, PSLs raised $600 million toward the $5 billion SoFi Stadium in Los Angeles for the Rams and Chargers, which opened in 2020. The Raiders, who moved from Oakland to Las Vegas, used PSLs to raise about $400 million to help pay for their new stadium, where they also began play in 2020. Fans paid anywhere from $500 to $75,000 for a PSL."
Are actually comparing the economies of LA, SF and Las Vegas to Buffalo and WNY? I have been reading numerous forums and seeing posts from many LOCAL long time STH, that cannot begin to afford the PSL's. No one is disputing that there are many Bills fans in a 75 mile radius and that many can afford the PSL's but there are a whole lot that can't. Why don't you peruse those forums and see for yourself.
"According to reports, PSLs raised $600 million toward the $5 billion SoFi Stadium in Los Angeles for the Rams and Chargers, which opened in 2020. The Raiders, who moved from Oakland to Las Vegas, used PSLs to raise about $400 million to help pay for their new stadium, where they also began play in 2020. Fans paid anywhere from $500 to $75,000 for a PSL."
Are actually comparing the economies of LA, SF and Las Vegas to Buffalo and WNY? I have been reading numerous forums and seeing posts from many LOCAL long time STH, that cannot begin to afford the PSL's. No one is disputing that there are many Bills fans in a 75 mile radius and that many can afford the PSL's but there are a whole lot that can't. Why don't you peruse those forums and see for yourself.
No, they are comparing the stadiums in terms of PSLs.
You actually would have to take other nearby areas into account in terms of the Bills, due to the reality of the locations of the season ticket holders.
Been there and done that, but couldn't that apply to any area that got a new stadium/PSLs? I'm sure those areas have season ticket holders that have been priced out as well. That is the unfortunate reality of the PSL game in any city/area. Here is the list for the NFL: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Person...ootball_League
I wouldn't be surprised if that list increases in the near future.
No, they are comparing the stadiums in terms of PSLs.
You actually would have to take other nearby areas into account in terms of the Bills, due to the reality of the locations of the season ticket holders.
Been there and done that, but couldn't that apply to any area that got a new stadium/PSLs? I'm sure those areas have season ticket holders that have been priced out as well. That is the unfortunate reality of the PSL game in any city/area. Here is the list for the NFL: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Person...ootball_League
I wouldn't be surprised if that list increases in the near future.
The new Bills stadium has 10,000 fewer seats than the current stadium, so that automatically results in higher demand for the remaining seats, and automatically results in higher prices by the law of supply and demand (at least when the Bills are winning). Demand will determine final pricing. Also, that frees 10,000 former seat holders to now spend their discretionary income elsewhere who otherwise would have spent it at the stadium. That adds up to at least $15M to $20M per season spent on stadium tickets, stadium food, stadium parking, etc. based on current costs.
That $15M to $20M can buy a lot more, and spread around the wealth more, than paying inflated seat and concession prices supporting millionaires and billionaires.
"Sales reps from Legends, hired specifically to sell seats and personal seat licenses at the new stadium to current season ticket holders and fans on the waiting list, also will receive commission on PSL sales.
PSL revenues will also pay for the operation of the Stadium Experience Center at the Walker Center in Amherst. It was built to not only get fans excited about the new stadium, but also sell them on renewing or becoming season ticket holders."
Having commissioned sales reps tells me there will be many impulse buyers and buyers remorse.
Depending on how well the PSL's sell and how well the team, or even the local economy will determine the secondary market. A $20,000 PSL might only bring $15,000, without the professional sales people and the fact that the market is so vast, from Toronto to Syracuse, into the Northern tier of Pennsylvania. Or so I'm told.
Can anyone tell me who benefits from the new stadium. 1.7 billion for 10,000 less seats in the same spot and no dome. Even if it had a dome, OP couldn't support a SB.
The new Bills stadium has 10,000 fewer seats than the current stadium, so that automatically results in higher demand for the remaining seats, and automatically results in higher prices by the law of supply and demand (at least when the Bills are winning). Demand will determine final pricing. Also, that frees 10,000 former seat holders to now spend their discretionary income elsewhere who otherwise would have spent it at the stadium. That adds up to at least $15M to $20M per season spent on stadium tickets, stadium food, stadium parking, etc. based on current costs.
That $15M to $20M can buy a lot more, and spread around the wealth more, than paying inflated seat and concession prices supporting millionaires and billionaires.
Great points and it will basically show who is willing to pay the price(literally and figuratively) to attend games at the new stadium. This is especially considering that there is a wait list now for season tickets. So, there interest is there, but now the new stadium will show who really wants to attend the games or season tickets.
As for the other posts, again, we’ve gone over the fact of the season ticket holders and where fans in the seats come from. It is just about ignoring that information.
As for the dome stadium, the Super Bowl would have come down to hotel rooms even with the domed stadium. Case in point, Syracuse’s Carrier/now JMA Wireless Dome(seats just under 50,000 for Football/about 34,000 max for Basketball)has a long history of hosting NCAA Men’s Basketball Tournament opening weekend or Sweet 16/Elite 8 games 7 times going back to 1983 until 2015. It has been a while some say due to the current administration at Syracuse University, but now since a Sheraton Hotel just of campus is becoming a residence hall, that puts the area under the minimum for hosting the tournament again(as of now). You can also look at the case of when Jacksonville hosted the Super Bowl, where they had to bring in ships for people to stay in. So, the hotel room count has to be there.
Not having a dome does hurt in terms of event all year round, but you still will likely need the mixed use development piece to make the stadium more of a year round attraction.
Great points and it will basically show who is willing to pay the price(literally and figuratively) to attend games at the new stadium. This is especially considering that there is a wait list now for season tickets. So, there interest is there, but now the new stadium will show who really wants to attend the games or season tickets.
As for the other posts, again, we’ve gone over the fact of the season ticket holders and where fans in the seats come from. It is just about ignoring that information.
As for the dome stadium, the Super Bowl would have come down to hotel rooms even with the domed stadium. Case in point, Syracuse’s Carrier/now JMA Wireless Dome(seats just under 50,000 for Football/about 34,000 max for Basketball)has a long history of hosting NCAA Men’s Basketball Tournament opening weekend or Sweet 16/Elite 8 games 7 times going back to 1983 until 2015. It has been a while some say due to the current administration at Syracuse University, but now since a Sheraton Hotel just of campus is becoming a residence hall, that puts the area under the minimum for hosting the tournament again(as of now). You can also look at the case of when Jacksonville hosted the Super Bowl, where they had to bring in ships for people to stay in. So, the hotel room count has to be there.
Not having a dome does hurt in terms of event all year round, but you still will likely need the mixed use development piece to make the stadium more of a year round attraction.
I gleaned this from the web:
Jacksonville was extra busy in February 2005.
“You have people coming in by boat, helicopter, car, limo,” said Michael Munz, a member of the city’s Super Bowl XXXIX host committee. “We had to bring in limos from Atlanta and Miami.”
Jacksonville, the smallest city to ever host a Super Bowl, faced a lot of logistical issues surrounding the big game. The biggest of all – running out of hotel rooms.
“The solution for that was we will bring in cruise ships,” said Munz. “We were like the little engine that could and we got it done.”
Inside the city limits, most Jacksonville folks like to look back on the city’s Super Bowl experience fondly. Outside, not everyone agrees.
The city ran out of hotel rooms, couldn’t handle the estimated 120,000 additional visitors and fans had to deal with overflowing toilets in the stadium on game day.
“It was the foulest thing I’ve ever smelled,” said one woman.
“It was disgusting,” added another.
“I don’t think there were any rooms available. I think people even rented their homes out for the weekend event,” said Tyrone Jackson, who works at the Hyatt Regency Jacksonville Riverfront hotel on the riverfront just a few miles from the football stadium. “I actually parked about eight blocks away to get down here for work because I didn’t want to get caught up in the bumper to bumper traffic.”
Even the newcomers to the city have been clued in to how dreadful that weekend was in northeast Florida.
“You got a lot of people from out of town looking for a good time and Jacksonville could not hold the capacity for the people from other parts of the state and country,” said Barlow Curran, a Jacksonville Jaguars. “So, I’ve heard bad things about the way it went.”
The committee members say the cruise ships were all part of the city’s pitch to get a Super Bowl to Jacksonville. They were necessary because the NFL has a rule that a host city must have a least one hotel with a minimum of 750 rooms. Jacksonville didn’t have one before building the Hyatt Regency Jacksonville Riverfront – specifically for the game.
“When the NFL comes to your city, it basically takes over,” said Jackson. “The city was under siege.”
“You have people coming in by boat, helicopter, car, limo,” said Michael Munz, a member of the city’s Super Bowl XXXIX host committee. “We had to bring in limos from Atlanta and Miami.”
Jacksonville, the smallest city to ever host a Super Bowl, faced a lot of logistical issues surrounding the big game. The biggest of all – running out of hotel rooms.
“The solution for that was we will bring in cruise ships,” said Munz. “We were like the little engine that could and we got it done.”
Inside the city limits, most Jacksonville folks like to look back on the city’s Super Bowl experience fondly. Outside, not everyone agrees.
The city ran out of hotel rooms, couldn’t handle the estimated 120,000 additional visitors and fans had to deal with overflowing toilets in the stadium on game day.
“It was the foulest thing I’ve ever smelled,” said one woman.
“It was disgusting,” added another.
“I don’t think there were any rooms available. I think people even rented their homes out for the weekend event,” said Tyrone Jackson, who works at the Hyatt Regency Jacksonville Riverfront hotel on the riverfront just a few miles from the football stadium. “I actually parked about eight blocks away to get down here for work because I didn’t want to get caught up in the bumper to bumper traffic.”
Even the newcomers to the city have been clued in to how dreadful that weekend was in northeast Florida.
“You got a lot of people from out of town looking for a good time and Jacksonville could not hold the capacity for the people from other parts of the state and country,” said Barlow Curran, a Jacksonville Jaguars. “So, I’ve heard bad things about the way it went.”
The committee members say the cruise ships were all part of the city’s pitch to get a Super Bowl to Jacksonville. They were necessary because the NFL has a rule that a host city must have a least one hotel with a minimum of 750 rooms. Jacksonville didn’t have one before building the Hyatt Regency Jacksonville Riverfront – specifically for the game.
“When the NFL comes to your city, it basically takes over,” said Jackson. “The city was under siege.”
Perhaps Buffalo could put some ships in Canalside if the current hotel set up is an issue.
With that said, it is very unlikely to occur.
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