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^^^
It is a good point and it is almost natural for any U.S administration to sideline smaller countries including democrats so this isn't just something that started with Trump, though it certainly has reached a crescendo with him. I don't see how it is in the U.S interest to marginalize two border countries like this though.
Well I know Mexico isn't just standing around doing nothing. It's had discussions with the EU and New Zealand about importing their dairy products and just made a deal with Brazil to import their corn.
Following repeated threats by U.S. President Donald Trump to pull out of the North American Free Trade Agreement, Mexico, a net grains importer, has been eager to show the United States that it has options to trade elsewhere.
It has touted an upcoming visit to China and trade talks under way with the European Union, Brazil and Argentina, while looking for new suppliers for the U.S. grains that make up most of its imports of corn, wheat and soybeans.
I imagine Mexico has had talks with Canada as well - part of Canada's Plan B.
^^^
Well neither Mexico or Canada are standing around doing nothing and really I think it is to be expected given what has happened. Really this is a rather quick and aggressive about face in terms of how the U.S is relating to two of its primary trading partners let alone its two primary geographic neighbours. The latter and former combined make for an incredibly important dynamic that is simply being nawed away by arrogance and ego.
The sad thing in the whole ordeal is that I don't even think the majority of Americans really grasp the gravity of what is going on with their neighbours. I don't blame them at all, they on the whole aren't as connected to what is going on with their neighbours as Canadians and Mexicans are with not just the U.S, but really how connected and integrated the countries really are.
I really think things will just start to happen bit by bit and there will be incremental impacts and it will be then that there is due attention to the real ramifications all of this is having and will continue to happen. However, at that point damage will already be done and by necessity, Canada and Mexico will seek to secure more stable relationships - not just for existing trade but future growth opportunities that would have otherwise happened that will not so there are potentially tremendous opportunity costs.
The people who are really concerned in the U.S are actually seasoned politicians on both sides of the aisle. Ask John McCain. As much as we would never - as the average Canadian see him as an ideological kindred spirit - there certainly is a practicality and realism about people like him who recognize and appreciate the integrity of these relationships.
One interesting dynamic that I think is happening is a closer bond between Mexico and Canada as they both see themselves as going through this together so to speak. That could bring interesting enhanced opportunities for both countries - particularly Canada as Mexico is an emerging economy in its own right.
Well the F35 is certainly more likely than the Hornet now but certainly Euro fighters will be in the mix. The Gripen is small but there is no indication I have seen that it isn't capable of defending a large country. Brazil chose the Gripen and it is a large country. As for Canada, it has more than one airbase believe it or not lol and the Gripen is an all weather platform that could easily be deployed to the Arctic where facilities are undeveloped. It is also the most versatile fighter in cold weather and like other fighters can be refueled using a probe and drogue system.
As for the price tag for the Typhoon, F35 or Rafale they are expensive. You could have 2X as many Gripen's
Well but Brasil is poor compare to Canada ^^!
Gripen is more or less a F-18C in term of performances (cf Switzerland report on Gripen. Eurofighter and Rafa after the swiss competition) , I m not sure a rich country like Canada will want that. The main advantage of the Gripen is the price, that's an enormous one, but that's the only advantage. Rafales or Typhoon aren't the price of a F-22 either and they are multirole. It's better to have a fleet of 30 Rafales instead of 60 Gripen for the same price, it saves a lot of money for the maintenance and you have machines with greater perf. Also a Typhoon or a Rafale make the job of two Gripens.
Anyway it ll be interesting to observe what Canada will do in the near futur !
Canada has an $11 billion trade advantage with the US. If they want to engage in a trade war with the US, they should have at it. Considering the scale of the economies, it's obvious who will feel the bigger pinch.
Regardless of the remarks in this thread, I don't think Canada wants a trade war.
My own feeling is that Canada wants a fair deal. It does not want "bluff and bluster" about "we can take you any time we want." I'll leave my comments on that alone for now. I will say that Canada will not take kindly to "We're in charge of North America" remarks from the United States.
The United States needs to realize that it is dealing with a foreign country, when it comes to Canada and softwood lumber. Would the US do the same to France, Germany, or Australia? No. It's only because Canada is in North America that the US complains that "Canada's softwood lumber is subsidized." Well so what? We're a foreign country with our own policies on government-owned land. Deal.
And that's the point. Canada wants to deal with the US as an equal partner in the community of nations. The US seems to want to deal with Canada as a junior partner, as a lackey of the US, doing what the US does in terms of government-owned land. No, Canada is a free and independent nation, just like France, Germany, and Australia. If the US is willing to deal with us as equals, on par with France, Germany, and Australia, great, we'll talk. But if the US looks at us as somehow inferior, as "America Junior," and calls us on the carpet because we don't do things the way that Americans do, we won't. We're a different country. Yet Canada and the US are equal players on the world stage, in trade and diplomatically. Something to think about.
Fair deals work between equal partners. They don't work when one partner thinks it is more equal than the other.
Well but Brasil is poor compare to Canada ^^!
Gripen is more or less a F-18C in term of performances (cf Switzerland report on Gripen. Eurofighter and Rafa after the swiss competition) , I m not sure a rich country like Canada will want that. The main advantage of the Gripen is the price, that's an enormous one, but that's the only advantage. Rafales or Typhoon aren't the price of a F-22 either and they are multirole. It's better to have a fleet of 30 Rafales instead of 60 Gripen for the same price, it saves a lot of money for the maintenance and you have machines with greater perf. Also a Typhoon or a Rafale make the job of two Gripens.
Anyway it ll be interesting to observe what Canada will do in the near futur !
Everyone knows the Gripens are supposed to be a cheaper fighter and it is mostly bought by countries with more modest airforces. The swiss reports made headlines around Europe especially in many countries with aging fleets of fighters . As usual the results were heavily contested and the entire fairness of the swiss evaluations were questionable to many. I doubt the truth can be found out on the internet. The swiss evaluation report is from the late 00s. Gripen NG was a paper plane at that point. Gripen has a big amount of parts of US origin. Engines and radars as far I remember.
Politics and other type of influence seems to run rampant in these type of fighter purchases.
Examples:
Brazil got the gripens because of the nsa scandal over american espionage of the brazilian oil industry.
Austria got small numbers of a very basic model of the eurofighter with the end result they can not use it to it's full capacity. Poland potentionally overpaid for used f-16s more than a decade ago. And now are looking for more used ones or the f-35. Croatia wanted to refurbish their mig-21s in Ukraine and this ended up with problems so they end up lacking fighters. India is a chapter to itself.
Well but Brasil is poor compare to Canada ^^!
Gripen is more or less a F-18C in term of performances (cf Switzerland report on Gripen. Eurofighter and Rafa after the swiss competition) , I m not sure a rich country like Canada will want that. The main advantage of the Gripen is the price, that's an enormous one, but that's the only advantage. Rafales or Typhoon aren't the price of a F-22 either and they are multirole. It's better to have a fleet of 30 Rafales instead of 60 Gripen for the same price, it saves a lot of money for the maintenance and you have machines with greater perf. Also a Typhoon or a Rafale make the job of two Gripens.
Anyway it ll be interesting to observe what Canada will do in the near futur !
Canada isn't a great power in need of pacifying anyone. The Gripen is more than enough to meet our needs and is NATO compliant. Another option if the Gripen is in the mix is a mixed fleet of Gripens and either the F35 or one of Typhoon or Rafale.
In this day and age I even question the relevance of fighters - especially for Canada. I'm not saying that we shouldn't have them but the Gripen is enough to meet the needs of our requirements. We should focus on other areas and technologies.
Regardless of the remarks in this thread, I don't think Canada wants a trade war.
My own feeling is that Canada wants a fair deal. It does not want "bluff and bluster" about "we can take you any time we want." I'll leave my comments on that alone for now. I will say that Canada will not take kindly to "We're in charge of North America" remarks from the United States.
The United States needs to realize that it is dealing with a foreign country, when it comes to Canada and softwood lumber. Would the US do the same to France, Germany, or Australia? No. It's only because Canada is in North America that the US complains that "Canada's softwood lumber is subsidized." Well so what? We're a foreign country with our own policies on government-owned land. Deal.
And that's the point. Canada wants to deal with the US as an equal partner in the community of nations. The US seems to want to deal with Canada as a junior partner, as a lackey of the US, doing what the US does in terms of government-owned land. No, Canada is a free and independent nation, just like France, Germany, and Australia. If the US is willing to deal with us as equals, on par with France, Germany, and Australia, great, we'll talk. But if the US looks at us as somehow inferior, as "America Junior," and calls us on the carpet because we don't do things the way that Americans do, we won't. We're a different country. Yet Canada and the US are equal players on the world stage, in trade and diplomatically. Something to think about.
Fair deals work between equal partners. They don't work when one partner thinks it is more equal than the other.
Chevy, the remarks of this thread are realistic given the situation unless one is living in a cocoon. Of course everyone in here wants a 'fair' deal. Nobody is saying otherwise and nobody wants a trade war. Who in this thread said that Canada should initiative a trade war with the U.S? What is being said and what Canadians largely agree on is that Canada shouldn't just roll over when it comes to negotiations with the U.S and yes, respond appropriately to nonsense. I certainly don't want any trade wars but here we are and Canada certainly didn't initiate this nonsense. If you haven't noticed imposing heavy tariffs on Lumber is a pretty substantive opening salvo on a trade spat!!
The whole paragraph on Canada wanting to be treated fairly and essentially as an adult is very fair but not what has been happening unless again and with respect, you've been living in a cocoon. I think part of it has to do with how the U.S treats countries in its immediate sphere of influence vs other countries. It is probably fair to say it takes a different approach with them otherwise Canada would have an in house 5th generation or beyond Avro type fighter right now and wouldn't be looking to Saab, Boeing, Lockheed, Dassault etc for a fighter.
Here is some good insight on why Boeing is possibly doing what it is doing.
They don't want the C Series in that country. They don't mind if they dump their products in Canada but not the other way around. So how is that exactly fair? We can choose arbitrary industries to say hey guys - you ain't playing fair on every single micro level either but so far we haven't. That is a measured response but still - there may come a time when being 'nice' when it comes to trade with this guy isn't in our interest.
I get that the trade balance between the two countries is remarkably balanced as a whole but still here we are so at what point Chevy are you willing to say you know what, maybe it is time to look a little bit further afield instead of putting all your eggs in a basket that really doesn't care as much as you do and where fair mindedness may not be at the root of how they roll.
This also has zero to do with the American people and much more to do with their President and really some large American MNC's not playing 'fair' - if the U.S wants to play fair i'm all for it actually so don't conflate what I am saying with wanting wanting a trade war at all but yes, we do need to look after our interests and part of that is not relying on one country so much for everything. I don't mean stop trading or engaging with the U.S by any means - they'll always be a big trade partner and ally but let's break that cycle of utter dominance and imbalance when it comes to our foreign needs or we are going to be down this road again and again and I don't see how that is in our long term interest. Do you?
Politics and other type of influence seems to run rampant in these type of fighter purchases.
Examples:
Brazil got the gripens because of the nsa scandal over american espionage of the brazilian oil industry.
.
Sure but if politics never was involved than countries would never use important leverage. Given everything I've learned about Boeing how we could actually negotiate in good faith with them anymore given their double standards. Besides - fighter wise I don't think the Super Hornet is really the best fighter for the buck anyway. Its a cool and capable plane now but what about 15 or 20 years from now...
Everyone's on the same page here. We're all concerned about each sip of the cup leaving the guy on the other side of the table thirsty and angry.
A significant amount of trade will ALWAYS be done with the U.S. and that is to be hoped for as a continuing factor in Canada's future development.
BUT and it's a big one;........all it took to throw that friendly alliance into a tailspin was one doofus not shiving-a-git about fairness nor allegiance but needing votes and continued support from his base.
Look at the cause and look at the result. ONE man's foolishness has undone decades of co-operation in spite of our always sucking the rear teat such as that stupid Bridge to the U.S. debacle they should feel nothing but shame over. Study of that disgrace should give anyone and everyone all they need to know about how billionaires hold sway over American politics at the expense of national alliances.
Trudeau has lots of ammunition, he just needs to have the will to use it, sparingly and only when appropriate certainly, but use it!
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