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I have thought of this often looking to my own future. In a conversation with my grown son he said "I know you like to be self sufficient and independent so just tell me what you want me to do." When I was a little ill.
The key words got me thinking there is a difference between being self sufficient and independent. I have reached the point where I am no longer completely self sufficient but remain independent. While I have to hire out more and more for the things no longer wise for me to do, I can pay my way, live on my own, etc so in my definition retain independence in my own home.
So I suppose a lot of people you mention may see themselves as independent but do not realize how they are lacking in self sufficiency hence children are filling in the sufficiency needs which may be missed
Just a thought.
I wonder how many of those people could easily afford to hire people to do their yard work, clean their house, meals brought to them, etc, but relatives are volunteering so they let them do it. And why not? Many people really want to help their aging relatives. So the elderly let them.
My aunt lived in her own home until she had a stroke at 105. The house belonged to her rich son who also hired someone to come in each day and help take care of her beginning in her mid 90's. He wanted to help her, he wanted to pay for it. Her daughter came over frequently too, brought food, and took her out a couple of times a week. They wanted to help their mother. Everyone was quite happy with the arrangement.
Does it really matter what they call it? Does it matter that it makes them feel better to think they are "living independently"? Isn't that what most people want?
I think this is probably somewhat of a spin-off of the days well within my memory when most elderly people lived in their own homes with some offspring and family moving in and essentially taking over the house (and inheriting it) in return for taking care of mom.
The worse alternative was when Mom came and lived in your house, and you got the extra work and inconvenience but no pay-off.
There was not even partial independence for either party in these set-ups.
But in those days being "put somewhere" was an alternative oftentimes with few options. Where I lived it would have meant going into the "county home." A real no-frills place in the hills. And that had the reputation for being a refuge for the indigent and those abandoned by their children.
Keeping Mom in her own home and running over to help may be "independently" if the alternative is having her live with you earlier, or perhaps footing some of her bills in a residence.
I am an elderly person living in what the OP has characterized as the "fantasy" of independently. I pay the fourteen year old fatherless son of an acquaintance to clean windows, move furniture, do lifting, etc. when I need it. He goes to school around the corner and is happy to be paid. The fact that I pay him certainly makes me no more independent that using the free labor of a son-in-law.
We live in an era of euphemism as the only socially acceptable truth. As a real-life situation this phony "independently "probably beats actually being "stuck living with Mom" as in the old days. But is anybody really fooling anybody with this "independently" term? I wonder. I am living "independently" as long as I have money to pay this adolescent or someone(s) else. But for me that word simply means without being in someplace living together with a bunch of other old people not of my choosing and under the regimen of some care business. It means my home, my rules...even if I have to pay to keep it that way.
If I had a son-in-law I might well be leaning on him to preserve my version of "independently." But I think I'd rather pay than fancy-dance around the strain that my needs might put on family dynamics. Perhaps the OP's MIL does believe this euphemistic fiction of "independently" that the OP points to, or she may simply be nobody's fool and is just keeping her mouth shut and allowing son-in-law to maintain her version of "independently" for her.
GREAT post. Thank you.
My husband got tired of dragging out the tractor to clear the driveway after it snowed. So we hired a handyman in the neighborhood who does it whenever it snows. Does that make us less 'independent'? We also have cleaning ladies a few times a month. But, heck, we've had that since our kids were little. We go out to dinner frequently. Does any of that make us less 'independent'?
The OP seems rather mean spirited or perhaps she just doesn't like her MIL or perhaps she thinks she knows what is best for her MIL. I sure hope my kids or their spouses never view me like that.
By the way, I feel sorry for what's coming down the chute for your brother in law...and his wife. Been there, done that.
Isn't that the truth!
As I said in my previous posting, my "independently" is a matter of paying for it...I am not able to be self-sufficient. Cash makes it happen. But when you pay for your independence there is (I would say) a lot less BS about. It is all there in the cash flow, even if the relationships with these people are wonderful.
All of the incredibly convoluted and often tormented stories I read in C-D about families caught in scenarios of "independently" where there is the very elusive flow of seething family emotions, and not the obvious flow of bills and coins that keep it going makes me realize that I am very fortunate.
She's 'too stubborn to' or she wants to remain in her own home? If she has enough money she can remain in her own home forever. My in-laws did that. They had 24/7 help in their home but they stayed there and died at home. They were introverts who would have been miserable if they had to move into assisted living.
If your MIL becomes too much for your BIL she can hire the help she needs.
I would hate to be forced into giving up my home when I can afford to stay here forever.
You misunderstood. By "independent" I mean no hired help of any kind (medical or non medical assistance etc). I'm not referring to what your inlaws did. My MIL is refusing to hire any helper when she returns home.
My husband got tired of dragging out the tractor to clear the driveway after it snowed. So we hired a handyman in the neighborhood who does it whenever it snows. Does that make us less 'independent'? We also have cleaning ladies a few times a month. But, heck, we've had that since our kids were little. We go out to dinner frequently. Does any of that make us less 'independent'?
The OP seems rather mean spirited or perhaps she just doesn't like her MIL or perhaps she thinks she knows what is best for her MIL. I sure hope my kids or their spouses never view me like that.
Not intended to be mean spirited. It's just a thought. If she wants to live at home with tons of dependence on my BIL in order for that to happen, that is between the two of them. But I think it should be acknowledged that she is living at home with the help of her son, or that she would not be able to live in her own home without him rather than sort of boasting that she can live on her own. That's the point I'm making.
Not intended to be mean spirited. It's just a thought. If she wants to live at home with tons of dependence on my BIL in order for that to happen, that is between the two of them. But I think it should be acknowledged that she is living at home with the help of her son, or that she would not be able to live in her own home without him rather than sort of boasting that she can live on her own. That's the point I'm making.
Well, and the other side of this coin of "independence" is the astronomical cost of nice assisted living places, never mind the even more astronomical cost of higher care nursing homes.
It might be that your MIL can manage staying home with the help of your BIL and not put financial burden on everyone else in the family. Families that have had to cough up money to put Mom in a home realize just what those costs are like. When there are 4 children and each one gets a $400 (or more) monthly bill for an assisted living home, they might wish they had managed somehow to keep Mom "independent."
Last edited by ndcairngorm; 03-10-2017 at 01:35 PM..
Reason: typo
As I said in my previous posting, my "independently" is a matter of paying for it...I am not able to be self-sufficient. Cash makes it happen. But when you pay for your independence there is (I would say) a lot less BS about. It is all there in the cash flow, even if the relationships with these people are wonderful.
All of the incredibly convoluted and often tormented stories I read in C-D about families caught in scenarios of "independently" where there is the very elusive flow of seething family emotions, and not the obvious flow of bills and coins that keep it going makes me realize that I am very fortunate.
I can't imagine anyone in my family pushing my grandparents to live somewhere other than their own home, or with one of their children. Of course, that was 40 years ago when people still did that. Throughout history, that's how it worked until very recently when people had the money to be pushed into assisted living or some other arrangement that takes the responsibility off the children and other relatives.
I understand that some folks are just too nasty and/or abusive to live with family but I expect those are few and far between. Each family makes the decision that works best for them because they can afford to. In the past Americans just weren't wealthy enough to have those options.
Still, there are apparently many Americans who make it to old age without the money to afford options. That's when it gets gnarly.
Not intended to be mean spirited. It's just a thought. If she wants to live at home with tons of dependence on my BIL in order for that to happen, that is between the two of them. But I think it should be acknowledged that she is living at home with the help of her son, or that she would not be able to live in her own home without him rather than sort of boasting that she can live on her own. That's the point I'm making.
So what if she's boasting and that makes her feel better? Everyone has illusions about themselves they want to maintain. Why can't she?
This is a good discussion. I've been thinking this for years. My mom lived independently for a few years, but not self-sufficiently. (I think this is an apt distinction. Thank you theoldnorthstate for pointing this out.) I think this might be a gray area though, because some of us oldsters choose to have certain things done for us, because we can afford to. But I did witness my mother going from self sufficience to dependence before she entered an ALF. And then when she lived in an ALF, insisting that she was doing just fine and needed no help for me or anyone else, even though she was getting her meals cooked, her meds dosed, and I was paying her bills. She even had someone to clean her room. But as far as she was concerned, she didn't need any help!
So, I suspect this is something elderly people with declining vitality tell themselves. They see themselves as self sufficient, never mind that the family has to prop them up periodically and the house they live in is going to wrack and ruin.
All of this is a choice though. When the elder's judgement is clouded and they remain proud, family members have to choose if they will enable this or force a change. Choices at the juncture of great change are really hard. It might seem to the family that if the elder would just move into independent living or an ALF, everything would be easier for all. To the elder it seems as if his or her very life is ending, or that they are not valuable to anyone, and are being shunted aside. I imagine how upsetting it is. I know my mom was very upset.
And so in so many cases, a crisis is finally what forces change.
I look ahead and ask myself when will be the time that I can no longer live in a house? Which of us will begin to fail in a big way first? How will we cope? I don't want to be a burden to my family. But I don't relish the idea of moving to a place where I feel forgotten.
I see both sides of this and I don't have a good answer.
You misunderstood. By "independent" I mean no hired help of any kind (medical or non medical assistance etc). I'm not referring to what your inlaws did. My MIL is refusing to hire any helper when she returns home.
Yeah, my in-laws refused at first. But that isn't a reason to force her out of her home. Your brother may need to tell her she needs help and hire those people. That's what we did. We hired the caretakers, lawn people, maintenance people. They had it made it VERY clear they wanted to remain in their own home so we made that happen. My in-laws came to really like the people who came to help them. It worked out well for all concerned.
Or your brother may decide he would rather continue to help care for her. When that gets to be too much he can hire people to help, with her money of course.
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