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Due to repeated attempts by another poster to further explore this topic on my A Fun Quiz on Mormonism thread, I decided to start a new thread on it.
The questions to be debated are:
(1) Did the Church Jesus Christ established remain unchanged (doctrinally and organizationally) from the time of His death to the present?
(2) If changes crept in over time, would this imply that Jesus Christ was "a liar" since He said that "the gates of hell would not prevail against it"?
Due to repeated attempts by another poster to further explore this topic on my A Fun Quiz on Mormonism thread, I decided to start a new thread on it.
The questions to be debated are:
(1) Did the Church Jesus Christ established remain unchanged (doctrinally and organizationally) from the time of His death to the present?
(2) If changes crept in over time, would this imply that Jesus Christ was "a liar" since He said that "the gates of hell would not prevail against it"?
Why is it people are so hesitant to be the first to post, but once discussion gets going, it's a whole different matter? I'm kind of wanted to see a few comments before I posted anything, but I guess I'm going to have to go first.
The following notable Protestants obviously believed an apostasy had taken place at some point following Christ's death. Here are some of their comments to that effect:
“I have sought nothing beyond reforming the Church in conformity with the Holy Scriptures. The spiritual powers have been… absolutely destroyed… I simply say that Christianity has ceased to exist among those who should have preserved it.” (Martin Luther, as quoted in Luther and His Times, page 509)
“[There is] no regularly constituted church of Christ on earth, nor any person authorized to administer any church ordinance, nor can there be until new apostles are sent by the great head of the Church, for whose coming I am seeking.” (Roger Williams, head of the first Baptist Church in America, as quoted in Picturesque America, or the Land We Live In; edited by William Cullen Bryant; 1872)
“It does not appear that these extraordinary gifts of the Holy Spirit were common in the Church for more than two or three centuries…. From this time… the extraordinary gifts of the Holy Ghost were no longer to be found in the Christian church… The Christians… only had a dead form [of Christianity] left.” (John Wesley, as quoted in John Wesley’s Works, volume 7)
The question is not whether an Apostasy took place, but the extent to which the original Church had been damaged, and what action was required to get it back to where it was at the time of the Apostles.
Moderator cut: deleted [m[u]This thread is.....about whether an apostasy in the early Christian Church took place or not. This is a topic that should interest all Christians. Obviously the Protestant Churches all believe this to some extent. Otherwise there would have been no need for "reform" the Church. GladToBeHome was very interested in talking about it, so I started a new thread.
Given the number of deleted posts thus far in this thread, anyone who does not wish to participate in it does not have to. If you do wish to particiipate in it, there is to be no religious bashing, baiting, and so forth. As well, scrutinizing moderator action or actions taken is not a cool thing to do, per the Terms of Service. No one is chomping at the bit here to dole out infractions, just as no one likes getting them. --In which case, either post appropriately, or....
Jesus Christ's Apostles preached that a "apostasia" would take place. Paul seemed particularly concerned about the infant Church and frequently voiced his concerns to the early Christians. Among his statements to Christ's followers, are these:
Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition…
Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel…
2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears…
Paul made it absolutely clear that (1)the flock would not only be attacked, it would not be spared, (2) Christ would not return to the earth until this universal "falling away" or "apostasy" had taken place, (3) these things were already beginning to take place as he spoke, and (4) the doctrines taught by the Savior would, in time, cease to endure.
I believe it's clear that this did, in fact take place. It's also interesting to see the evolution of Christ's doctrines over the ages and to see the emergence of new ones.
I'm curious to know what doctrines y'all think were lost. Is there any evidence that's so?
Of course, it should go without saying that some things certainly did change, especially in the Catholic church. I'm not knocking Catholics, but they were the only Christian church in the western world for a thousand years and they drifted far enough from the Gospel that the Protestant Reformation became necessary. Had not that church become what it was at the time, there would have been no need of a reformation.
And, I don't know enough about the Eastern Orthodox church, except that they split with Rome over some sort of doctrinal disagreements.
And, I will admit that the modern-day church bears little resemblance to the early church in terms of the manner in which it's organized, but so far as I know, the Gospel message of redemption through the shed blood of the risen Christ has remained the same, throughout all times and all denominations (with a few exceptions). We may disagree on the mechanics of salvation, but the basic premise is still what it was at the beginning, isn't it?
I'm curious to know what doctrines y'all think were lost. Is there any evidence that's so?
When I say certain doctrines were "lost," what I'm really saying is that some of what was taught anciently is no longer taught today. You and I have been discussing salvation on another thread. We've discovered some similarities and, of course, some differences. One doctrine that doesn't appear to have survived the early years of Christianity concerns what exactly happens once a person's spirit leaves his body at death. Some people believe the spirits of the righteous go directly to Heaven. Others believe that a great many people end up going to Purgatory for a period of time and then to Heaven. Others, of course, don't even believe in Purgatory. Some believe that the spirit continues to be conscious after it leaves the body; others believe it is unconscious until the resurrection. The many discussions on ET/UR (I never even heard of these terms until I came to City-Data) imply that many people believe that death does not mark the final curtain and that something more happens before the Final Judgment. So I'd say that this whole "interum" period of time after death but before the resurrection is kind of foggy to many people, and that would be because the doctrine, as it was taught during the time of Christ, failed to survive intact. I could probably name a half dozen other doctrines as well.
As far as the "evidence" is concerned, I'd say that the greatest evidence is in the number of varying viewpoints we see here each day on City-Data. If these topics prompt such intense scrutiny among Christians today, it stands to reason that this would have been the same anciently. So what did the first and second-century Christians believe on these various points of doctrine? To me personally, that's a fascinating subject. It's one of my favorite topics to discuss. I know their beliefs in many cases were pretty different from what Christian Churches today teach.
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Of course, it should go without saying that some things certainly did change, especially in the Catholic church. I'm not knocking Catholics, but they were the only Christian church in the western world for a thousand years and they drifted far enough from the Gospel that the Protestant Reformation became necessary. Had not that church become what it was at the time, there would have been no need of a reformation.
So how would a Protestant such as yourself respond to the Catholic argument that Christ said "the gates of hell" would not "prevail" against His Church? That's what I'm really interested in exploring.
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...so far as I know, the Gospel message of redemption through the shed blood of the risen Christ has remained the same, throughout all times and all denominations (with a few exceptions). We may disagree on the mechanics of salvation, but the basic premise is still what it was at the beginning, isn't it?
Does anything else really matter?
I think it matters, but not to the extent that it should divide us as it does. Obviously all of us agree as to the fact that Jesus Christ is our Savior. That's the most important thing. The way I feel is that He wants us to "get it right." He wants us to know the truth about how salvation is accomplished. But it's not as if He's going to condemn people to eternal torment if they understood incorrectly.
When I say certain doctrines were "lost," what I'm really saying is that some of what was taught anciently is no longer taught today. You and I have been discussing salvation on another thread. We've discovered some similarities and, of course, some differences. One doctrine that doesn't appear to have survived the early years of Christianity concerns what exactly happens once a person's spirit leaves his body at death. Some people believe the spirits of the righteous go directly to Heaven. Others believe that a great many people end up going to Purgatory for a period of time and then to Heaven. Others, of course, don't even believe in Purgatory. Some believe that the spirit continues to be conscious after it leaves the body; others believe it is unconscious until the resurrection. The many discussions on ET/UR (I never even heard of these terms until I came to City-Data) imply that many people believe that death does not mark the final curtain and that something more happens before the Final Judgment. So I'd say that this whole "interum" period of time after death but before the resurrection is kind of foggy to many people, and that would be because the doctrine, as it was taught during the time of Christ, failed to survive intact. I could probably name a half dozen other doctrines as well.
A lot of people point to the absence of certain fruits of the Spirit, such as speaking in, and interpreting, tongues; prophesy etc. as evidence the Church has gone astray. While it's easy to admit that may be so, based upon those things, it's as easy to suggest that perhaps the problem isn't with the Church or doctrine, but with the people who make up the Church. Perhaps instead of the Church drifting away, it's a matter of the Spirit not pouring out those gifts on people not faithful enough to handle it.
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As far as the "evidence" is concerned, I'd say that the greatest evidence is in the number of varying viewpoints we see here each day on City-Data. If these topics prompt such intense scrutiny among Christians today, it stands to reason that this would have been the same anciently. So what did the first and second-century Christians believe on these various points of doctrine? To me personally, that's a fascinating subject. It's one of my favorite topics to discuss. I know their beliefs in many cases were pretty different from what Christian Churches today teach.
It's doubtful that every denomination is wrong, the same as it's doubtful that only one has the "truth." It is astonishing, though, how many different beliefs and doctrines can be found in the same little book, isn't it?
Perhaps that's due to the influence of Satan, or maybe God allows all those different denominations so we'll all find a comfortable place to fit.
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So how would a Protestant such as yourself respond to the Catholic argument that Christ said "the gates of hell" would not "prevail" against His Church? That's what I'm really interested in exploring.
He won't let the gates of hell prevail over His church.
However, that doesn't mean I accept the Catholic notion that only theirs IS the true church. Of course, that belief is based upon Peter being the rock on which He'd found His Church and the Catholic's claim Peter as essentially the first Pope.
Looking back at the history of Christianity and the Roman church, it's not hard to see how that belief developed, but I think they take Christ's comments about Peter a little too literally. Peter was the foundation of the WHOLE Church, in the sense that all believers make up the Church. I make a distinction between the Church, (capitalized) and any earthly church (not capitalized) because I think scripture makes that distinction. Christ's Church is His bride, the total of all believers from whatever earthly congregation and, while we can be members of an earthly church, our REAL membership is in His Church.
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I think it matters, but not to the extent that it should divide us as it does. Obviously all of us agree as to the fact that Jesus Christ is our Savior. That's the most important thing. The way I feel is that He wants us to "get it right." He wants us to know the truth about how salvation is accomplished. But it's not as if He's going to condemn people to eternal torment if they understood incorrectly.
Due to repeated attempts by another poster to further explore this topic on my A Fun Quiz on Mormonism thread, I decided to start a new thread on it.
The questions to be debated are:
(1) Did the Church Jesus Christ established remain unchanged (doctrinally and organizationally) from the time of His death to the present?
(2) If changes crept in over time, would this imply that Jesus Christ was "a liar" since He said that "the gates of hell would not prevail against it"?
RESPONSE:
1. Jesus didn't found a new church. If you read Acts of the Apostles, you will see that the immediate followers of Christ remained very orthodox Temple worshipping Jews in a Jerusalem community.
When the Jerusalem community was crushed (c. 135 AD), the churches founded by Paul survived. Hence, Paul founded Christianity as we know it today.
2. I suggest that you compare the quotation "the gates of hell would not prevail against it " whichyou are quoting with Mark and Luke's accounts.
You will see that the incident described by Matthew 16 is copied almost verbatim from Mark 8 but which doesn't include anything about a Jesus' church. Neither does Luke's account of the same incident.
It is reasonable to believe that Matt 16: 17-19 is a later insertion added to provide a scriptural basis for the Christian church.
1. Jesus didn't found a new church. If you read Acts of the Apostles, you will see that the immediate followers of Christ remained very orthodox Temple worshipping Jews in a Jerusalem community.
When the Jerusalem community was crushed (c. 135 AD), the churches founded by Paul survived. Hence, Paul founded Christianity as we know it today.
I disagree. I believe that Jesus said He was going to establish His Church and that He did so.
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2. I suggest that you compare the quotation
Quote:
"the gates of hell would not prevail against it " whichyou are quoting with Mark and Luke's accounts.
You will see that the incident described by Matthew 16 is copied almost verbatim from Mark 8 but which doesn't include anything about a Jesus' church. Neither does Luke's account of the same incident.
It is reasonable to believe that Matt 16: 17-19 is a later insertion added to provide a scriptural basis for the Christian church.
I don't think that's a reasonable assumption. Can you provide me with any evidence that this is a later insertion.
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I'm kind of wanted to see a few comments before I posted anything, but I guess I'm going to have to go first. 
