Israel - the Elect (Torah, Gomorrah, Sodom, doctrine)

[sciotamicks]

How many tribes were there?
Answer - 12
How many Jewish tribes were there?
Answer - 1 - the Jew - Judah the 4th born of Jacob

The First Born Blessing Split In Two
What did they get?
The full account is found in Genesis 48 and 49

Judah - Received the kinship, preeminence, priestly blessing (Gen 49:10)

Joseph - received the double inheritance. This was a prophetic utterance of what was to transpire later. The blessing continues to Ephraim and Manasseh. In Genesis 48:19 we see the term "melo - ha - goyim," which literally means the to become a multitude of nations. In many translations it is rendered "fullness of the gentiles". These were they who were out of covenant. The word "goyim" means out of Covenant. Thus, God made His covenant with Judah. The other tribes were out of covenant - as we shall see later - due to their constant rebellion against God and His commandments.

Ephraim who now carried the 1st born blessing of the House of Israel was to be a multitude of nations.

The Most Significant Prophecy Besides The Messiah Is….
Answer - Deut 29:15 - 29:14-15

These verses tell us of the conditions set forth by God. It does not imply salvation - for they were already chosen - However as chosen people of God, they had to obey the commandments of God. The covenantal prerequisites of promises and curses that would befall the Israelites, were declared onto them as they arrived, overlooking the land of Canaan. Moreover, (and this is most vital) verses 14-15 in chapter 29, is in reference to ALL after them - all generations to come, for all Israelites, and those who attain themselves to the covenant.

Fast forward to the kings...

All 12 tribes (Israelites) were governed under 3 kings (Saul, David, & Solomon) They were governed as one, until Solomon blew it (1 Kings 11:31). The kingdom of Israel was split into two, similar to the cloth that was split in two. 10 tribes went to Solomon’s servant, Jeroboam and the other two tribes went to his son. Thus, the kingdom of Israel became the kingdom of the north thus becoming the House of Israel (the House of Ephraim) & the kingdom of the south became what is called the House of Judah. The north consisted of 10 tribes & the south contained two.

Note: The tribe of Benjamin intermarried with the tribe of Judah.
The 10 tribes constantly broke God’s commandments, thus they were scattered after the Assyrian crisis - never to come back - they assembled into the four corners of the earth. Some say they were never to be heard from again - is this accurate? Overtime they became known as the ‘goyam’ (gentiles) as fulfillment of Genesis 48.

The Southern kingdom was taken captive by the Babylonian empire - thus they realized that they had broken the covenantal commandments of God and they repented. Due to this act of repentance God brought them back into the promised land, upon which the 2nd Jewish temple was built - even in troublous times....Daniel 9... It is the very same temple upon which God would enter (Mal 3:1, Matt 21:1-16).

Deut 30:1-6

Key word is return in verse 2, gather from all the nations verse 3. It is God asking "If my people who are called by my name shall humble themselves and pray and turn from their wicked ways", etc (2 Chron 7:14). In verses 5 & 6 of Deut 30, we see the promises of God, indicating that He will bring them back into the land & upon doing do so, circumcise their hearts and the hearts of their seed to love the Lord with all their soul, that they may live.

Fast Forward To Jesus’ Time...

During Jesus’ time we had the covenant people & the out of covenant people. Even as they (the out of covenant people) were scattered, they were still outside the city. Jesus showed great concern for this when He uttered….

"But He answered and said, "I am not sent but onto the lost sheep of the House of Israel" (Matt 15:24).

Another such example is found in Matthew 15:1-30.…when He healed the daughter of a woman from the coast of Tyre and Sidon, who was vexed with evil spirits. Obviously, she is of the scattered house of Israel, as revealed in vs. 26-28 - for she only know of the Covenant - but could not enjoy its fruits, only the crumbs they enjoyed (that which they heard in the market places, at water wells, at the squares, villages, towns, etc). But they were never allowed into the synagogues.

Another example is found in John 11:54, where He went into a city called Ephraim (cross ref with 2 Chron 13:19)

Similar passages are found in John 10:3-7, 16. Israel is called the scattered sheep in Jere 50:17. They are called the remnant of Israel that will be bought together as the sheep of Boaz. They shall make great noise by reason of a multitude of men (Mic 2:12). Ezek 11:16, 34:12, also confirms this.

Characteristics of Judah

1. They have the law (Gen 49:10)
2. They did not lose their identity because they came back
3. They will reject the Messiah
4. They are "those that are near" (Dan 9:7)

Characteristics of Ephraim

1. They were scattered (far off)
2. They are the 10 tribes
3. They are among the gentiles (Hosea 8:8)
4. They have forgotten the name of their God (Jere 23:27)
5. They are wealthy (Gen 49:22)
6. They do not know or understand the law of God, they do not keep it (Hosea 8:10)
7. They are called "not my people" (Hosea 2:23, Isa 57:19, Jere 50:6)
8. Majority will come from the west (Hosea 13:15)

So Are The 12 Tribes Found In The New Testament?
Answer - Yes
We see the Jews, the Gentiles, and the Scattered flock of the House of Israel

For they were made referenced to in John 11:45-54 by Caiaphas, the high priest.
For they are mentioned of by the Apostle Peter (I Pet 1;1)
For they are mentioned of by the Apostle James (James 1:1)

In retrospect, the doctrine of election is that God had chosen a nation, elected them, they went their own ways (scattered among the nations, thus becoming the fullness of the gentiles), and He predestined them back into the New Covenant. Fulfilling His promise to sniff out the scattered tribes of Ephraim (Amos 9:9), who were often found among the Greeks (John 7:33-35).

Paul illustrates this point in Romans 9:24, where he quoted from Hosea 1:10 - God will bring them back.
1. Romans 12:14-15 is a quote from Jeremiah 31:33 - a popular verse.
2. That which was broken into pieces (Jere 11:16) is now grafted into one (Rom 11:24)
3. The fullness of the gentiles is the northern kingdom established - representing all Israel.
4. For all Israel shall be saved (Rom 11:26)
5. For it is God’s Covenant / promise He made onto them (Rom 11:27)
6. The House is brought back together

All this is confirmed again by the Apostle Paul - the greatest rabbical scholar of the Torah, and the writing of the prophets in (Eph 2:11-19)

….This pretty much sums of the question that the Apostles asked concerning the Kingdom of God.

But all this can not be true based on Jeremiah 3:8. In Jere 3:8 God had divorced Israel and Judah, Moreover, God had said in the Torah, that even we can’t remarry once we are divorced. Thus we have a dilemma. How can God marry the backsliding harlot Israel, when she slept with many? Can a woman marry another? Yes, if the husband dies (Rom 7:1-2). But God never dies. Therefore, wouldn’t God be breaking His own commandments, if He was to marry her (Israel)?

Ah, but here is the beauty of the greatest love story ever - the Scriptures reveal that the Husband did die - for He died for His Bride, as verses 3-4 reveals in Romans 7. And He is raised from the dead, so that we, as once aliens to the commonwealth of Israel the elect, should bring forth fruits onto God.

Thanks for reading.
Ken Palmer
Covenant Preterism

[savedbysovereigngrace]

The Physical descendants Israel of Abraham were not the Elect of God, the Chosen of God. They were the called as a Nation, but only few within that Physical Nation were the Chosen of God. Matt 22:14

For many are called[The Physical Nation], but few are chosen[God's Children of promise].

In this context,before the establishment of the New Covenant, the called were not the Chosen.

The Physical Nation was called by God and appointed to be the Nation according to the flesh, which Christ would come, the seed of Abraham. However, it was only a few of the Spiritual seed in that Nation which were the Chosen People of God.

In Fact, Paul makes it clear that the chosen within the Nation partook of the Promises and the rest were blinded Rom 11:7

What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Now who are the election ? The word in the greek is ekloge and means:

the act of picking out, choosing

a) of the act of God's free will by which before the foundation of the world he decreed his blessings to certain persons

b) the decree made from choice by which he determined to bless certain persons through Christ by grace alone

2) a thing or person chosen

a) of persons: God's elect


The word is translated chosen here acts 9:15
15But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

So, Rom 11:7 can very well read


What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the Chosen hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

So we have here a clear distinction between the Chosen and the Physical Nation of Israel designated as the rest, the remnant, the left overs.

Now both the Chosen, and the rest cannot be the Chosen People of God ! So there you have it, only a Chosen Remnant within National Israel, Abraham Physical descendants were the Chosen of God. That Chosen remnant of the election of Grace is also Israel.

So Paul says it like this in Rom 9:6

6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel[Chosen], which are of Israel[The rest]:

The Physical Israel, that is, Israelites only according to the Flesh, they are not the Children of God Rom 9:8

8That is, They[Israel Physical seed] which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

If you are not the Children of God, then you are not Chosen simple as that, ethnicity does not constitute one being Chosen of God, but the faith of Jesus Christ. So whenever Israel the elect are being spoken of Like Isa 45:4

For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

Ps 135:4

For the LORD hath chosen Jacob unto himself, and Israel for his peculiar treasure.

Isa 41:8

But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.


This is not the Physical People of Israel, but the Spiritual People of Faith, of All nations. Granted, this Spiritual Israel for many centuries was in the Physical Nation,but they were always a distinct remnant in God's eyes Isa 1:

9Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.

You see, the very small remnant is Israel, the root ! The root is Holy, Abraham ! And all Believers in Christ are Abraham's seed, His Holy Offspring Gal 3:29

29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed [Isa 41:8], and heirs according to the promise.

If ye are Abraham's Seed, then are Ye Israel, the Children of Promise.

If ye are not Christ, and yet a ethnic jew, yes you are still Abraham's seed of the flesh, but you are not a Child of God, and if not a Child of God, not an Heir of Promise, or Chosen.

[sciotamicks]

Originally Posted by savedbysovereigngrace

For many are called[The Physical Nation], but few are chosen[God's Children of promise].

But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease.

In this context, before the establishment of the New Covenant, the called were not the Chosen.

You have offered a presupposition to the context, however, but failed to establish point 1.

The Physical Nation was called by God and appointed to be the Nation according to the flesh, which Christ would come, the seed of Abraham. However, it was only a few of the Spiritual seed in that Nation which were the Chosen People of God.

The remnant are those who were chosen, of all 12 tribes, as the OP has already established. Israel according to the Spirit existed within National Israel (Israel according to the flesh) and it always to spiritual Israel that God had an end in view. The OT teaches quite plainly that the Gentiles would be included in the restored (redeeemed) Israel....

In Fact, Paul makes it clear that the chosen within the Nation partook of the Promises and the rest were blinded Rom 11:7

Wrong again. Romans 11 is solely about the promise made in Gen 48:19, that one day Israel's fulness amongst the nations/Gentiles, would be grafted back in. Those who were blinded were apostate. The House of Israel was "divorced" by God (Hosea 1) and scattered among the nations. The were to be "not a people." But, He would have mercy on these 10 tribes, and reunite them with their (treacherous sister) Judah.

[What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Now who are the election ? The word in the greek is ekloge and means:

the act of picking out, choosing

a) of the act of God's free will by which before the foundation of the world he decreed his blessings to certain persons

b) the decree made from choice by which he determined to bless certain persons through Christ by grace alone

2) a thing or person chosen

a) of persons: God's elect


The word is translated chosen here acts 9:15
15But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

So, Rom 11:7 can very well read


What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the Chosen hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

The chosen elect..the 7000...Israel...thank you for calrifying my point.

The rest of your post is redunandant, saying the same thing as I already esatblished above. The remnant are Israel, chosen and elect, picked out from the Old Covenant order, and because of them, the richness and glory of the Gentiles is manifest.

If ye are not Christ, and yet a ethnic jew, yes you are still Abraham's seed of the flesh, but you are not a Child of God, and if not a Child of God, not an Heir of Promise, or Chosen.

I kept this quote to even further establish a point.....now, an ethnic Jew, apart from Christ is indeed, just another person, and "out" of covenant with God. Now, the people of God are those in Christ. Promise to Israel was fulfilled and completed when the Temple fell, fulfilling the Olivet Discourse completely. The promise to all 12 tribes is finished.

For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me. (Isa 45:4)
And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there. (Isa 65:9)

They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree [are] the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands. (Isa 65:22)

The elect are always the righteous remnant of the Covenant people, and His Bride. It is the Bride alone that has the surname and the inheritance. It was them that were to obtain salvation (2 Timothy 2:10) according to the foreknowledge of God the Father (1 Peter 1:2).

For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews on behalf of God’s truth, to confirm the promises made to the patriarchs (Romans 15:8).
I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him (2 Corinthians 11:2).

It's clear in Romans 9 that he is talking about the natural branches and the wild branches being the Jews and the 10 Northern tribes (this becomes clear by understanding the passages from Hosea and Isaiah that Paul quotes). Once all the grafting is done, "so all Israel will be saved." We can infer that the 10 Northern tribes bring with them the people they've been mixed with (again, per Isaiah). But, Romans is a very corporate book and seems to me to be answering a number of questions about switching from Corporate Group 1 (people under Adam, or Sin, or the Law) to Corporate Group 2 (people under Christ). The mystery of how this works is the one that Paul is constantly talking about. It was always unclear how God as going to pull off what he promised in these two prophets.

There are a couple of decidedly confusing things in Romans to many. The first starts at the beginning. In chapter 1 we hear that some people were given a clear explanation of God through the creation of the "world" (v. 20). I suggest that since "world" is used in many places by Paul as a euphemism for the post-Sinai Mosaic order as a representative of the Adamic order (an so, the "new world" is the New Heaven and New Earth), the creation of the "world" was the issuing of the Mosaic Law (I know not everyone will agree with my characterization of that, but it's my understanding at this point). So, when chapter 1 describes the things about the creation which should have OBVIOUSLY pointed to attributes of God, what he' saying is that each of the Levitical elements described something about God and worship of him (this is mirrored in Hebrews where we hear that each earthly element of the Levitical code explains something specific about the spiritual reality in heaven). The chapter wraps up essentially describing the idol and orgiastic worship that the Israelites fell into. If this interpretation is correct, then we start out with a section which is almost universally interpreted to include pagan atheists and realize that it's talking about Israel from Sinai forward. How much of the book is mistaken for talking about pagan Gentiles when it is actually referring to one of the two houses of Israel?

The second problem is that Paul doesn't restrict himself to referring to Israel as either "Israel according to the Flesh" or "Israel according to the Spirit" as explicit labels. So, in my opinion, any mention of "Israel" could be either one. I think it's worth testing either option throughout to see what makes the most sense (instead of solely switching to "Israel according to the Spirit" once he declares that is an option).

Third, it's important to be very clear about labels (I'm sure you already know this, but it's important to be clear when talking about this issue). The "Jews" were the returnees from the exile of the Kingdom of Judah (Judah, part of Benjamin, and a number of Levites). They didn't exist before the kingdoms separated. This means that there were no Jews in David's time and no Jews at Sinai. Instead, they were referred to as Hebrews or Israelites. Once the Kingdom split, you have Israelites and Jews (though technically Jews were a subset of Israelites). This becomes a big deal when you see prophecies saying that Jacob and Ephraim will reunited (as predicted in Ezekiel and then referred to in Ephesians as being completed).

Finally, one of the things that I think subtly points to the Aramaic Primacists being correct is that they have noted absolutely no reference to "Arameans" in the Greek sourced NT text. They claim that this is implausible. Instead, the Pesittta Aramaic shows a number of references to these people. Why are they missing, and what confusion would it cause if thy were? Well, they might be missing for non nefarious reasons. Maybe the translators were lazy and generic when using a term to refer to anyone other than the Jews (though if you wanted to deny Aramaic had anything to do with the early text you'd want to get rid of references to people from that area; Luke is referred to as an Aramean in the Aramaic text). More importantly, if a large number of gentiles were Arameans instead of Greeks that would lean towards them more likely being from the 10 Northern Tribes as opposed to a southern European background (we at least subconsciously understand Greeks to be European, so I think this skews us a bit). Since we are now seeing that Paul is explicitly saying in Romans 9 that the "wild olives" are from the 10 Northern Tribes (and their hangers on), I think we should reexamine how we understand the anthropology of the Bible.

The character of the Gentiles seems clearly associated with "No Mercy", or Israel:

Hos 1:6 She conceived again and bore a daughter. And the LORD said to him, "Call her name No Mercy, for I will no more have mercy on the house of Israel, to forgive them at all.
Hos 1:7 But I will have mercy on the house of Judah, and I will save them by the LORD their God.
Hos 1:8 When she had weaned No Mercy, she conceived and bore a son.
Hos 1:9 And the LORD said, "Call his name Not My People, for you are not my people, and I am not your God."

In judging Judah, we see the dissolution of the OC:

Hos 2:11 And I will put an end to all her mirth, her feasts, her new moons, her Sabbaths, and all her appointed feasts.

On the day of the re-marriage, we see Judah accomodated as well as the "Birds and Bugs" (aliens from the commonwealth):

Hos 2:16 "And in that day, declares the LORD, you will call me 'My Husband,' and no longer will you call me 'My Baal.'
Hos 2:17 For I will remove the names of the Baals from her mouth, and they shall be remembered by name no more.
Hos 2:18 And I will make for them a covenant on that day with the beasts of the field, the birds of the heavens, and the creeping things of the ground. And I will abolish the bow, the sword, and war from the land, and I will make you lie down in safety.
Hos 2:19 And I will betroth you to me forever. I will betroth you to me in righteousness and in justice, in steadfast love and in mercy.
Hos 2:20 I will betroth you to me in faithfulness. And you shall know the LORD.
Hos 2:21 "And in that day I will answer, declares the LORD, I will answer the heavens, and they shall answer the earth,
Hos 2:22 and the earth shall answer the grain, the wine, and the oil, and they shall answer Jezreel,
Hos 2:23 and I will sow her for myself in the land. And I will have mercy on No Mercy, and I will say to Not My People, 'You are my people'; and he shall say, 'You are my God.'"

In this passage, I see three characters: No Mercy (Judah), Not My People (10 Northern Tribes), and the "Birds and Bugs". All three take part in the NC. This is the basic scheme. It is repeated with more details in the next chapters. If you can keep Peter (2 Peter 3) from completly screwing up your understanding of how long a day will last, you will see in this one a clear correlation with Christ's resurrection and our participation with him. I think this is clearly where Paul gets his idea of us being raised with Christ in Colossians:

Hos 6:2 After two days he will revive us; on the third day he will raise us up, that we may live before him.

Throughout the book, there is a criticism of "Ephraim (representin Israel) and Judah (as the Southern kingdom). Then, we see this gem:

Hos 6:7 But like Adam they transgressed the covenant; there they dealt faithlessly with me.

This seems to indicate a master covenant. If not, it at least indicates that Adam was under a covenant (a heaven and earth) of some kind before the fall.
Commenting on the theme of a harvest (which is all through the NT in the words of the Lord)...

Hos 6:11 For you also, O Judah, a harvest is appointed, when I restore the fortunes of my people.

The salvation that God contemplates in the book is described in chapter 13. If God were to save them, he say:
The next few chapters describe God being angry and repeated imagery of killing or enslaving Israel.
Then, he proposes that he is going to bring them back from that death.

Hos 13:14 Shall I ransom them from the power of Sheol? Shall I redeem them from Death? O Death, where are your plagues? O Sheol, where is your sting? Compassion is hidden from my eyes.

The fact that Paul explicitly associates this passage with the resurrection in 1st Corinthians 15 means that the national rebirth that God was contemplating (bringing Israel back from the dead) was occurring in that generation. This is even more strong when he explicitly says in Ephesians that the two sticks described in Ezekiel have been brought together:

Eze 37:15 The word of the LORD came to me:
Eze 37:16 "Son of man, take a stick and write on it, 'For Judah, and the people of Israel associated with him'; then take another stick and write on it, 'For Joseph (the stick of Ephraim) and all the house of Israel associated with him.'
Eze 37:17 And join them one to another into one stick, that they may become one in your hand.
Eze 37:18 And when your people say to you, 'Will you not tell us what you mean by these?'
Eze 37:19 say to them, Thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I am about to take the stick of Joseph (that is in the hand of Ephraim) and the tribes of Israel associated with him. And I will join with it the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, that they may be one in my hand.
Eze 37:20 When the sticks on which you write are in your hand before their eyes,
Eze 37:21 then say to them, Thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I will take the people of Israel from the nations among which they have gone, and will gather them from all around, and bring them to their own land.
Eze 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. And one king shall be king over them all, and they shall be no longer two nations, and no longer divided into two kingdoms.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Eph 2:11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called "the uncircumcision" by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands--
Eph 2:12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility
Eph 2:15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,
Eph 2:16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.

....and finally a connection between the creation mentioned in v.10 and Colossians 1...

Col 1:13 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son,
Col 1:14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through him and for him.
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent.
Col 1:19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell,
Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

I am not in Jacob, I am in Christ. Simple.

[savedbysovereigngrace]

sci:

But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Thats the elect. She was one of them.

[sciotamicks]

Originally Posted by savedbysovereigngrace

sci:



Thats the elect. She was one of them.

One of them? Expand please? I think the issue between you and me SBSG is that I argue from a preterist perspective and you don't. You think you are part of the bride...i.e. elect...when in fact I do not. I see the bride as a first century application, indicative to only Israel (called out from national) but of the spirit...grafted back into the lump etc. The thing is, do you believe Christ's words? I know you do.

Now let me ask you this, if you believe His words, what say ye of?

I am coming soon.

The children of promise are none other than the 7000 Paul elaborated on. These are the children of Promise. They are the "sons of adoption"...vessel of mercy or wrath...etc... In no way am I a child of Abraham.....I am a child of Christ. Since He already came and brought in salvation to those who waited eartnestly for Him, I have that now. Salvation is something you do not have (in reality you do according to my premise) but you can't prove it from your perspective.

Abraham's promise was fulfilled when history recorded the Temple's fall. This was the outward and physical manifestation of an inward and spritual reality....not one stone...tell us master...when will the end of all these things be....the end of the age?

Many blessings.

[katjonjj]

Thanks for posting all this sciota... This is exactly the line of thought and my conclusions that I came to while trying to PROVE the rapture/fundy end times stuff... Turned out I disproved it to myself.


Then I was called a preterist.... I guess I thought maybe I was alone out there... Now I have a nice pretty label....

[Ilene Wright]

Originally Posted by sciotamicks

One of them? Expand please? I think the issue between you and me SBSG is that I argue from a preterist perspective and you don't. You think you are part of the bride...i.e. elect...when in fact I do not. I see the bride as a first century application, indicative to only Israel (called out from national) but of the spirit...grafted back into the lump etc. The thing is, do you believe Christ's words? I know you do.

Now let me ask you this, if you believe His words, what say ye of?

I am coming soon.

The children of promise are none other than the 7000 Paul elaborated on. These are the children of Promise. They are the "sons of adoption"...vessel of mercy or wrath...etc... In no way am I a child of Abraham.....I am a child of Christ. Since He already came and brought in salvation to those who waited eartnestly for Him, I have that now. Salvation is something you do not have (in reality you do according to my premise) but you can't prove it from your perspective.

Abraham's promise was fulfilled when history recorded the Temple's fall. This was the outward and physical manifestation of an inward and spritual reality....not one stone...tell us master...when will the end of all these things be....the end of the age?

Many blessings.

Dang Sciotamicks, you almost convinced me to be a Preterist there for a minute. Sorry, still not buying it.

[savedbysovereigngrace]

One of them? Expand please?

She was one of the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel that He came to save. Thats just another name for the world He came to save.

Jn 3:17

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Is this a different sending than the one in Matt 1524:

But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

No its not, its the very exact same Mission He was sent on. Also this one Jn 6:

39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

He was sent to save the world of the Lost Sheep of Israel, the Seed of Abraham, throughout the world. She was a Child of Abraham.

Matt 15:

28Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

So as it is written Gal 3:

Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham[ House of Israel]

[savedbysovereigngrace]

The children of promise are none other than the 7000 Paul elaborated on. These are the children of Promise

The Children of Promise are believers in Christ Gal 4:28

Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

Paul is speaking to His Brethren in Christ, it does not matter if they're Jew or Gentile.

[katjonjj]

Originally Posted by Ilene Wright

Dang Sciotamicks, you almost convinced me to be a Preterist there for a minute. Sorry, still not buying it.

One thing at a time Ilene! Lol

Actually, Eschatology is not that huge an issue, there's plenty of time to study it and really, whatever conclusion you come to has to be right for you at the time.

The rapture talk and end times stuff at church always scared me and yet never made sense... So I was motivated to figure it out.

I realized two things, first that I was a child and it is less scary as an adult...
Second, that within the context of the times and culture, both Jew and Gentile, and the history of the people of the region, there is no way one can make a second future coming make any sense.

My first question was, why would Jesus tell people about it with urgency back then if they wouldnt ever see it happen in the first place...from there it was just a matter of study.

But you will go at your own pace.. We all do.