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What scripture says we are imperfect from the moment of conception?
Is the point of human conception the beginning of a human being? Are human beings perfect or not? You make the point, you will not find babies being given exception from the human race. Does the scripture telling us we all fall short apply to human beings?
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Did you not read all of the scriptures I posted that say we are created in God's image? Don't you believe we are created in His image? If so, how can you account for all of the scriptures that say we are.
Well, of course we are created in Gods image, does that then mean God can sin and probably eventually will? Funny how being created in Gods images don't prevent someone from eventually sinning. Being created in his image didnt prevent a human from doing evil things. So what is it worth to be created in Gods image if it has prevented none of that?
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I am not saying a person could go for an entire lifetime without sinning. But I certainly believe it is possible to not sin.
Well, you said previously you weren't saying that it is possible not to sin, so which is it?
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I never said it was impossible. I said sin was a choice we make. We don't sin because we have a sin nature. That puts us in a no choice situation. Maybe I am not making myself clear.
Here are your own words
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I am not saying that it is possible for anyone to never sin.
Not using the word impossible does not mean you are not saying that.
If you are not saying that it is possible for anyone to never sin, then how can you then say that you think it is possible not to sin. You aren't being clear because you are saying two opposite things when you write.
Of course sin is a choice we make, but you have yet to explain why something created without sin, then chooses to sin.
When you answered what causes a human being to sin yopu answered temptation and free will.
Do you believe Jesus was tempted and had free will? If so why didn't Jesus sin? What inherantly is different from Jesus and anyone else?
Our nature perhaps?
Doesn't the act of making a choice to sin imply imperfection? What causes something to go from sinless to sinful? Jesus was tempted and evidently had free will, but it did not cause him to go from sinless to sinful.
Dear trettep, we need to go back to Romans 5:12 to see what made us sinners. It was death that entered into the human race that made us sinners. We don't die because we sin. We sin because we are dying.
In Romans 5:12 it is "death entered into all mankind and it is for that reason that all sin."
The baby you bring up did not die because it sinned but it had death operating in it till it died.
Eusibius your comment is flawed in the fact that Adam died because he sinned not because he was dieing. The wages of sin is death. There is nothing in the scriptures that show the wages of death is sin. That is a made up fabrication that is not found in the scriptures. I hope you remove it from your thinking.
The baby had death because it had sin.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
All were mades sinners because of Adam's sin as that verse shows. Sin then reigns unto death:
Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Your putting the death before the sin instead of how it should be the sin before the death as God's Word shows.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Remember this is no imputating of sin where there is no law. And since there was no law between Adam and Moses there was still SIN and Death. That SIN was the sin of Adam that is inherited by all of us as members of his body.
Don't you see Eusibius that those that are members of Adam's body share in his sin and condemnation (which is all of us - minus Christ). Those in the second Adam's body (Christ) share in His righteousness and life. This is why Christ had to be born of a virgin so as to not be under the same condemnation as Adam.
I just wrote you a long post to you and lost it. I hate it when you backspace on this forum and what you just got done writing is no longer there. ARRGGHHHH!
Anyway, thanks for your post Heart. I appreciate the sincerity. I know that I am in the minority when it comes to the doctrine of original sin. I'll try to explain to you why I changed my thinking, and believe it or not, it did not come because of anything I was ever taught in the church of Christ. I knew they beleived that way, but I don't believe I ever sat through a lesson or a Bible study that discussed it. I came to the conclusion on my own.
The fact that we are created in God's image is proof enough for me. God did not create men with sin or a sin nature. He created us with a human nature, which included free will. We sin because we are tempted, not because we are inherently bad. We are tempted, and then we make a choice to walk away or go for it. I agree with you. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. We have fleshly desires. That is part of being human. But fleshly desires are not bad in and of themselves. They are only bad when they are channeled improperly. Sexual desire is a good thing. Otherwise, how would we procreate. Hunger and thirst are good things too, but they can be abused. There is nothing wrong with desiring a good home and things for our families. But how we go about acquiring these things can be wrong if not done according to God's ways.
I was born and raised catholic. When I grew up, I realized that what I'd been taught was not truth. I began to question at a very early age everything they said. Since I left the RCC, I have questioned everything I was ever taught, except the existence of God.
IMO, people accept the doctrine of OS because this is what they were taught their whole lives, and they have no reason to not believe it. It sounds pretty plausible. I think all christians need to research the doctrine and where it came from. I know that Jesus never mentioned it, and neither did the apostles, early church fathers, or the OT writers. You can pick scriptures and try to make them fit original sin, but then you can do that with any doctrine you want to teach.
I learned that the doctrine of inherited depravity came from the gnostics. Augustine was part of a gnostic sect called the Maincheans. Augustine was the first to introduce original sin to the RCC in the fifth century. Don't take my word for any of this. Do some unbiased research for yourself.
Blessings,
Katie
Sorry you lost your post, Katie. I'm mainly trying to understand why this doctrine is so very important to you. There are many doctrines that people disagree on that do not matter to me -- belief in the trinity being one of many. I prefer to look for things that unite us in the bond of peace. The main doctrine that separates me from others is the doctrine of eternal torment -- I can't unite with that.
ShanaBrown;22295334]Katie, will we always take that way out? I don't understand your second sentence, please explain further.
I believe that we sin because we have death operating in us. Death in us is the reason why we sin.
Romans 5:12, which says death passed to all men because all have sinned. It does not say that sin passes to all men because Adam sinned I believe that the original language/construct in the scripture was "death passed to all men on which all have sinned."
Sorry I didn't make myself clear. I was referencing a scripture. God will not allow us to be tempted beyond what we are able, and will also provide a way of escape for us. IOW, we don't have to sin. We have the choice.
12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. 13 No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it. (1 Cor. 10:12-13)
I still do not understand how death operating on us makes us sin. I agree that we are mortal. We have a human nature, and a free will to go with it. When temptation comes our way, we choose to either obey God's laws or disobey them. We sin because we want to. I think the blame for sin lies squarely with us. We need not blame anything but us. I'm not really disagreeing with you, but it almost sounds like you are saying we can't help ourselves from sinning. I don't believe that. The temptation to do wrong can sometimes be overwhelming, but we still make the choice.
I agree with you 100% about Romans 5:12. It is death that gets passed on, not sin. I already explained in my other post why we die. I think it's because we have lost access to the tree of life. That's my HO for what it's worth.
My question to you is do you believe we spiritually die?
Katie
Last edited by MissKate12; 12-28-2011 at 02:20 PM..
Eusibius your comment is flawed in the fact that Adam died because he sinned not because he was dieing. The wages of sin is death. There is nothing in the scriptures that show the wages of death is sin. That is a made up fabrication that is not found in the scriptures. I hope you remove it from your thinking.
True, Adam died because he sinned. But death was passed through into all mankind and it is for that reason that all sin. That is what Romans 5:12 states. I don't make this stuff up.
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The baby had death because it had sin.
Not really. The baby was dying and due to the dying condition was made a sinner. You keep putting the cart before the horse.
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Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
All were mades sinners because of Adam's sin as that verse shows. Sin then reigns unto death:
Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Your putting the death before the sin instead of how it should be the sin before the death as God's Word shows.
Paul put death before sin in 5:12. We have death passed through into us and for that reason all sin.
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Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Different topic in 6:23 which is not connected with Romans 5:12-19.
Sin is capitalized in the Concordant Literal New Testament in that verse because it is figuratively a monarch. Sin as an evil monarch hands out rations of death.
Remember this is no imputating of sin where there is no law. And since there was no law between Adam and Moses there was still SIN and Death. That SIN was the sin of Adam that is inherited by all of us as members of his body.
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Don't you see Eusibius that those that are members of Adam's body share in his sin and condemnation (which is all of us - minus Christ). Those in the second Adam's body (Christ) share in His righteousness and life. This is why Christ had to be born of a virgin so as to not be under the same condemnation as Adam.
It doesn't say those who are in Adam as opposed to those who are in Christ in Romans 5. Rather it is all mankind are affected by what Adam did and the same all mankind are affected by what Christ did. That's what 5:12,18,19 is all about. We humans are just neutral recipients of what both men did.
I'm sorry Katie, I thought that I answered it here:
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And what about spiritual death? Do you believe we die spiritually when we sin?
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Yes, I believe that we are enslaved or in bondage to sin and we are dead spiritually unless we have the Spirit of God living in us. God bless.
But maybe I am misunderstanding what you mean by spiritually dying. Please elaborate.
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Sorry I didn't make myself clear. I was referencing a scripture. God will not allow us to be tempted beyond what we are able, and will also provide a way of escape for us. IOW, we don't have to sin. We have the choice.
12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. 13 No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it. (1 Cor. 10:12-13)
I still do not understand how death operating on us being makes us sin. I agree that we are mortal. We have a human nature, and a free will to go with it. When temptation comes our way, we choose to either obey God's laws or disobey them. We sin because we want to. I think the blame for sin lies squarely with us. We need not blame anything but us. I'm not really disagreeing with you, but it almost sounds like you are saying we can't help ourselves from sinning. I don't believe that. The temptation to do wrong can sometimes be overwhelming, but we still make the choice.
I agree with you 100% about Romans 5:12. It is death that gets passed on, not sin. I already explained in my other post why we die. I think it's because we have lost access to the tree of life. That's my HO for what it's worth.
The scripture that I posted presents we are constituted as sinners due to Adam's disobedience, (Romans 5:19) and will all become sinners because of death operating in us. We are not born into this world a perfect beings because we are born into death and because of this we will all become sinners in need of a Savior. In this respect, I do not believe that anyone can prevent themselves from becoming a sinner. (Romans 5:19) We are enslaved to sin, in bondage to sin, (John 8:34) meaning that we are under it's bondage or control, until Jesus sets us free and then we are able to walk in the newness of life and put to death the deeds of the body. (Romans 8:9) We can only walk right with God with God's help, being led by the Spirit of God.
It's good to delve into God's word. Thank you for the discussion.
God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 12-28-2011 at 01:32 PM..
Sorry you lost your post, Katie. I'm mainly trying to understand why this doctrine is so very important to you. There are many doctrines that people disagree on that do not matter to me -- belief in the trinity being one of many. I prefer to look for things that unite us in the bond of peace. The main doctrine that separates me from others is the doctrine of eternal torment -- I can't unite with that.
I hate the doctrine of original sin. It is a part of the doctrine of total depravity which says we are so depraved, we cannot seek out God. He chooses a select group to be saved, and the rest are condemned to eternal torment. We can do nothing good by ourselves. It the vilest, most evil lie. I am sad to think that so many never come to Jesus because they think they aren't good enough to be one of the elect. The thought makes me ill. So that's the main reason why I fight it. It is my hope and prayer that someone will read my posts and study the topic with an open heart and mind.
I do believe in eternal torment. Like you, this doctrine is not important enough to me right now to make it my battle ground. Maybe when I'm tired of fighting this fight, I'll go there.
Yes it's good to talk about things that unite us in the bond of peace, but at the same time we are told to contend for the faith. I guess it's good to have a bit of both.
Blessings,
Katie
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