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Actually, Roman government and rule was much like America today, except that some leaders usurped the senate that represented the people and grabbed absolute power to become emperors.
Sounds familiar....
And when I say "much like" I don't mean there was freedom like we have today, just a well-oiled, tight and complex bureacracy as big or bigger than our own and coercive government enforcement.
Romans 13:1-6 doesn't take much to conclude that the context is civil goverment.
That's what it says, doesn't. That God uses goverments as servants.."an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer."
It takes a lot of support from the people for the Hilter's and Stalin's rise to power and Russia and Germany paid a terrible price for those two. And yet, God punishes the Hilter's and Stalin's for being evil (Pharaoh\King of Babylon comes to mind)
I am glad the Catholic Church, with all its failings, teaches we don't have to put up with injustice and with immoral and tyranical governments, because many tyrants have through-out history appealed to Scripture and God to justify their existence and actions. From Catechism of the Catholic Church - IntraText:
Quote:
2242 The citizen is obliged in conscience not to follow the directives of civil authorities when they are contrary to the demands of the moral order, to the fundamental rights of persons or the teachings of the Gospel. Refusing obedience to civil authorities, when their demands are contrary to those of an upright conscience, finds its justification in the distinction between serving God and serving the political community. "Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's."48 "We must obey God rather than men":49
When citizens are under the oppression of a public authority which oversteps its competence, they should still not refuse to give or to do what is objectively demanded of them by the common good; but it is legitimate for them to defend their own rights and those of their fellow citizens against the abuse of this authority within the limits of the natural law and the Law of the Gospel.50
2243 Armed resistance to oppression by political authority is not legitimate, unless all the following conditions are met: 1) there is certain, grave, and prolonged violation of fundamental rights; 2) all other means of redress have been exhausted; 3) such resistance will not provoke worse disorders; 4) there is well-founded hope of success; and 5) it is impossible reasonably to foresee any better solution.
by todays standards , thier was no goverment - state back in the day when jesus walked the earth so its silly using terms like state enforced charity etc , those are loaded terms
They had the Roman rule, and the Jewish rule, and the Jews had to pay tax to both. It was called "tax". On top of that Jesus said you should give to the poor voluntarily.
The Catholic Church is very leftist economically, it is very easy for the Bishops to advocate raising taxes on people to "redistribute" the money according to the whims of a politician or bureaucrat since they don't pay taxes. In this instance, I am forced to agree with protestants that it is not staying true to Scripture.
those religous conservatives who claim jesus was opposed to redistribution of wealth , immedietley remind me of the saying
god is created in mans immage , people usually pray to a god who is compatible with their own world view
ps , classic catholicism is indeed leftist on economic matters , its authoratarian left while a sizeable number of protestant denominations are right wing across the spectrum
They had the Roman rule, and the Jewish rule, and the Jews had to pay tax to both. It was called "tax". On top of that Jesus said you should give to the poor voluntarily.
if jesus said people should give to the poor voluntarily , i imagine his main focus was on the word give , you conveniently focus on the word voluntarily
i judge this issue based on what i learned growing up and the jesus i learned about was no libertarian - anti statist capitalist
btw , my interpretation of jesus and how he thought in no ways reflects my own politics , i happen to know that charlie chaplin was hard left politically yet im not
if jesus said people should give to the poor voluntarily , i imagine his main focus was on the word give , you conveniently focus on the word voluntarily
i judge this issue based on what i learned growing up and the jesus i learned about was no libertarian - anti statist capitalist
It is not your opinion, ok, but did the Catholics who taught you this point out in Scripture where Jesus says or implies He is pro-statist?
if jesus said people should give to the poor voluntarily , i imagine his main focus was on the word give , you conveniently focus on the word voluntarily
Right. Give. Not take, then give. Or..not State take and then State give...I can't find anywhere in Scripture where Jesus says that. I can't find anywhere in Scripture where Jesus says or implies that giving should be by force.
if jesus said people should give to the poor voluntarily , i imagine his main focus was on the word give , you conveniently focus on the word voluntarily
And so should you, because it makes the huge difference.
Jesus taught giving voluntarily with a joyous heart, and the liberal view of "charity" is not in line with His teaching. Liberals teach the government should take from people against their will and then redistribute the money to whomever that want.
I agree.
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that it is not staying true to Scripture.