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Can ANYONE explain to me, in your OWN words....not quoting the Bible....how you would answer some of the questions that eventually led me to lose my Christian faith?
I can't stress enough how much I want someone to explain to me in HUMAN terms, because trust me, I know the Bible, I was a born-again, Bible-believing, scripture-quoting, homeschooling, fundamentalist Christian for decades.
Here is one of the most haunting issues that has never been satisfactorily explained to me. It has to do with eternal torment by a loving, powerful, and just god.
I think that everyone here can see the difference between a loving parent and a cruel parent, humanly speaking. A parent who physically harms, who severely punishes so as to inflict immense pain, perhaps puts lit cigarettes against the child's skin, or holds lit matches to their child, should be reported to Child Protective Services! Surely no one here would describe those actions as loving. Is there ANY disobedience by a child that makes punishment of pain, torment, and firey burning by the parent acceptable and loving?
No, of course not. Never would the infliction of severe burning and torment by one human upon another be considered loving or just.
God has given us brains that understand what it means for a parent to exhibit loving behavior, and it does not mean to beat or burn or physically harm their child, even once, let alone for years and years, non-stop, never letting up.
So how can anyone use those same terms, "loving and just," to describe a god who chooses to inflict not just torment, but eternal never-ending horrific torment, on anyone who happens to not believe in him? Remember, god is also described as "all-powerful," so he can do or not do ANYTHING he chooses. He never HAD to make the sin/punishment system this way....he chose to. So god, as your heavenly parent, chooses to eternally torment some of his children, and Christians still see him as just and loving. Doesn't it seem that the definition of "love" changes tremendously when we look at god's method of punishment compared to human parents' punishment of their children?
All-loving, completely just, and all-powerful. How can these three attributes exist in a god who has chosen to eternally torment the vast majority of his human creation? Please don't tell me that people choose this destiny by their disbelief in god. I want to know why god would have ever made eternal torment a possibility at all. No human being, with their imperfect love for their children, would ever want to create a place of eternal torment for their child.
Again, answers in your own words only. The use of scriptures will only add to my belief that there is no logical, satisfactory answer to these questions that have so troubled me.
I know the Bible, I was a born-again, Bible-believing, scripture-quoting, homeschooling, fundamentalist Christian for decades
Ditto.
My answer to your question:
There are 3 main schools of thought within Christianity, all of which use the bible to support their beliefs (which tends to be true, in general ... Christians can support a variety of conflicting beliefs with the bible, depending on how it is interpreted). The 3 are: eternal torment, annihilationism, and universal reconciliation.
Aisi, the doctrine of eternal torment came from the minds of people who were afraid of God and considered God an enemy. The idea took hold with a vengeance and, for many people who've been indoctrinated with it and who still see humanity as separated from God, it remains a reality.
But, I do not believe the idea ever entered the mind of God, who is love. It's simply human imagination gone horribly wrong.
Sounds like your first problem is you don't trust God and His word. Second, who are you to judge God? It sounds like you are just in rebellion and want to blame God for your lack of faith.
Sounds like your first problem is you don't trust God and His word. Second, who are you to judge God? It sounds like you are just in rebellion and want to blame God for your lack of faith.
Is that how you were taught to win people to your faith? I asked a sincere question, very humbly and politely.
Honestly, do you really want to be won back over to a "faith" in eternal torment or the mindset that comes with that "faith"? One doesn't have to believe in eternal torment in order to believe in God or that the bible has a message of worth.
All-loving, completely just, and all-powerful. How can these three attributes exist in a god who has chosen to eternally torment the vast majority of his human creation?
Those attributes are contrary to a God Who would eternally torment anyone or any animal. God is not going to eternally torment anyone or any animal. Only in an improperly translated Bible would such a Being do such a dastardly thing.
If such a horrendous God exists then our parent's love is greater than His.
If such a horrendous God exists He should be loathed rather than loved.
I believe God will save all mankind (1 Timothy 2:4-6; 4:10,11).
I have a geometry problem that I need help with. But I don't want you to give me equations from the text book, and I don't want to hear what the teacher has said in class. You are limiting the answers you get because you are putting up barriers - but I will give it a shot.
#1 - There is no "past tense" as far as someone being a Christian. God is faithful even though we aren't. Once a person has the Holy Spirit within - you are going to reside eternally with the Father and Jesus Christ.
With regards to torment, I think you have it kind of backwards. If God, sits on His hands and does nothing, and lets the human race play out without intervention - we are all toast. We all get eternal torment. We all deserve it because we have all broken God's law.
The fact that God didn't zap Adam and Eve when they messed up and did the ONE thing they weren't supposed to do - that's God's grace. The fact that the Lord chose to speak to Noah and save his family from the flood is all about God's grace and mercy. He didn't have to do that. Same with Israel in the wilderness. God delivered them from Egypt. Three days later, they are moaning and groaning to God. He had every right to let them all die in the desert - but He didn't.
The fact that God sent His Son to die is the ultimate act of love. It's important to have the correct perspective on this.
I also think you have an inaccurate view when you mention torment along side of children being burned w/ cigarettes. I think a big part of torment is just being in an existence separated from God and Christ. And I think part of the purpose in having some in torment, is for those who are NOT in torment to appreciate where they are and WHO they are with. If everyone is "in heaven" - would that really be appreciated? No. People would have no interest in being like Christ while on the earth.
God is just. If He is just, there has to be a penalty for sin - and whatever torment there is, He set it up that way for His purpose.
In the end, it's all about trust. Do you trust God or not? His Person? His program? It will never humanly make sense. It didn't make sense for the people of Israel to follow Moses through the bottom of the Red Sea. Those who followed Moses - survived. The enemies tried to go through - they perished. Doesn't make human sense. It never will. So to use human reasoning to try and figure out salvation, torment, etc. - it's futile. Everything is by faith. Everything.
GOD is GOD and evil is evil. Who gets to where is each man's problem, heaven or hell it is a choice. I believe God is merciful and He says He judges the heart- I am never sure of who is comdemned or not, NOT my place to know- just see to it, that I try to do MY best and guide and pray others to also find God for themselves. There should be a FEAR of God as well as feeling totally confident in His love. HE is a good father. I think you should ask- What will make a person perish in eternal damnation?, this question is raised daily. I see evil, like you say- child abuse, and it is horrid to know a human can be that way to a small child. What would you do with the evil people? Maybe could try to see the world through His eyes. There must be a reason you question His sovereingty has come up now, as you say you were brought up in the faith. I hope you find peace, and a valid answer to your question.
The Bible is full of myths and legends.(imo)
God is not there,else there would not be so many different flavors of Christianity.
I had to leave the church, leave religion and the love of h and inlaws in order to be able to release myself from the hate and judgements of the religious world. I have since become so much more at peace with the creator once all the burdens of man's religion was lifted from me.
I can find comfort in most the Psalms, and there is great moral lessons in proverbs.
Jesus (who was not God) showed that God is unconditional love, and that God resided in all of us, not just the ones man claims He does.
Conditional love is a doctrine of man, not from our creator.
JMHO
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