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Modern theology says that salvation is through faith.
Yet even OT figures such as Abraham had faith.
So why did Jesus come, if faith was already possible in the OT? What did Jesus bring that Abraham didn't already have?
Peace.
brian
Abraham's faith was in Jesus, just administered differently in the Old Testament. Same covenant, different testament in reference to Jesus as the testator.
JOH 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. See HEB 8-10
HEB 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
HEB 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
LUK 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.
1CO 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
ROM 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also.
COL 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
1CO 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us.
1CO 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
HEB 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Abraham's faith was in Jesus, just administered differently in the Old Testament. Same covenant, different testament in reference to Jesus as the testator.
JOH 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. See HEB 8-10
HEB 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
HEB 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
LUK 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.
1CO 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
ROM 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also.
COL 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
1CO 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us.
1CO 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
HEB 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Ok.
So, all those who came before Jesus, were not justified, even if they had faith.
Then what was supposed to be demonstrated in the OT, seeing that no one was justified, whether they had faith or not?
...according to modern theology. Why? Because according to modern theology, you just have to believe in God, and you are saved. That makes Jesus' sacrifice quite needless.
Think about it.
However,
Jesus' sacrifice, as I see it today, was very important. It was important because he successfully "broke" the laws of nature, which God determined, which said that carnal man would be a slave to sin, and therefore death. "All men have sinned..." All men before Jesus could not see salvation, because in order to have eternal life, they had to receive it as a gift from someone who had never sinned, yet lived.
Jesus, although in the flesh, didn't sin. This caused death to "reject" him, just as Jonas was vomited from the mouth of the whale. Death could not hold Jesus. God made death in such a way that anyone who was sinless could not be held by it. Like two positive magnet poles, they repel each other. And Jesus was repelled by death. Back into Life.
And it is precisely this "rejection" by the chains of death, which permitted Jesus to be our Savior, the only one who could have eternal life. And he now gives us this life! Cool!
Discuss..
Blessings,
brian
Brian,
I've never heard of any Christian who taught or implied that Jesus did not need to come into the world. I don't understand the point of your post. The scriptures do say that death could not HOLD him. But also that Jesus DIED. It was God who raised Jesus from the dead. I'm not a trinitarian because Jesus said he had a God who was the same God and Father that we have. The power Jesus had was given to him from the Father. We are joint heirs with him. He has preeminence (first-ness) in all things pertaining to God and man's relationship to God. Jesus was the first born from among the dead. It's all very deep and mysterious. But I just wanted to say I have never heard any type of Christian imply that Jesus did not have to come into the world. Yet also, let us remember that as he was in the world, so are we in the world. Jesus is our pattern to show us the WAY back to the Father. He did not remove suffering or our appointed subjection to death and dying. But he did take away our FEAR OF DEATH by showing it to have no power over LOVE. Love is stronger than death and the grave and love is eternal. God's love for us will never change nor is it dependent on what we do or do not do nor on what we know or do not know. Our mental and spiritual condition IS DEPENDENT ON THOSE THINGS however. Because as a man(or woman) thinks in their heart - so are they. If you perceive yourself as being "on probation" with God - then you will live that way. If you perceive that God is angry with other sinners, you will go around telling people that, though it's a lie.
Ok.
So, all those who came before Jesus, were not justified, even if they had faith.
Then what was supposed to be demonstrated in the OT, seeing that no one was justified, whether they had faith or not?
Ok.
So, all those who came before Jesus, were not justified, even if they had faith.
Then what was supposed to be demonstrated in the OT, seeing that no one was justified, whether they had faith or not?
I've never heard of any Christian who taught or implied that Jesus did not need to come into the world. I don't understand the point of your post. The scriptures do say that death could not HOLD him. But also that Jesus DIED. It was God who raised Jesus from the dead. I'm not a trinitarian because Jesus said he had a God who was the same God and Father that we have. The power Jesus had was given to him from the Father. We are joint heirs with him. He has preeminence (first-ness) in all things pertaining to God and man's relationship to God. Jesus was the first born from among the dead. It's all very deep and mysterious. But I just wanted to say I have never heard any type of Christian imply that Jesus did not have to come into the world. Yet also, let us remember that as he was in the world, so are we in the world. Jesus is our pattern to show us the WAY back to the Father. He did not remove suffering or our appointed subjection to death and dying. But he did take away our FEAR OF DEATH by showing it to have no power over LOVE. Love is stronger than death and the grave and love is eternal. God's love for us will never change nor is it dependent on what we do or do not do nor on what we know or do not know. Our mental and spiritual condition IS DEPENDENT ON THOSE THINGS however. Because as a man(or woman) thinks in their heart - so are they. If you perceive yourself as being "on probation" with God - then you will live that way. If you perceive that God is angry with other sinners, you will go around telling people that, though it's a lie.
Hi Heartsong,
don't worry, I'm not completely gone off the deep end. I do indeed there is a special purpose in Jesus' life and death and resurrection. My perspective is not so much that God had to "be appeased." I think that's a tribal-type thinking that is left over from our pagan heritage.
I think his death and resurrection were crucial on a "metaphysical" level, based on the scriptures I noted earlier here, such as "death could not hold him" and "he tasted death for every man." To me, his death did something to all of nature. The likenes of Jonah being vomited by the whale came to mind at that moment, as I seemed to see Jesus being "vomited out of the grave." His perfectness somehow "short-circuited" death's power.
This leads me to a conclusion similar to your post here, in that the fear of death is no longer present. (Men show fear of death, but it may be that they have been culturally conditioned to this. In fact, another scripture that comes to mind is that he came "to set free those who all their lives had been captive to the fear of death.")
The conclusion that I come to is that death has probably either been "eliminated" or somehow "put out of order" by Jesus' death. And perhaps not just for believers, but for everyone. After all, who lived "all their lives in bondage to the fear of death?" All mankind.
Perhaps this is the "free gift" that Jesus came to bring to mankind. (Freely, not just to believers.)
In this light, Jesus is the best "Santa Claus" we could ever have!
I'm glad that he did. We would still be in darkness in respect to His wonderful unconditional life changing love (it will if persistently dwellt upon)demonstrated towards us, and still believing that God is mad, angry,wrathful and always on our case, and threatening us with eternal hell if we don't believe he loves us, in fear and dread of him..................hang on a minute.......... We still do.
In this light, Jesus is the best "Santa Claus" we could ever have!
Blessings,
brian
It would seem that your perception is closer to the "Christus Victor" theory of the mechanics of atonement that was the major view nof the earliest Christian commentators.
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