Why does the Roman Catholic Church believe that the Bishop of Rome is the exclusive and rightful successor to Peter? (churches, beliefs)
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From the sound of things, Apostolic Succession seems a lot like a magician pulling a rabbit out of his hat. It seems to appear out of nowhere. One second, a bishop is a strictly local leader with no authority outside if his region/city. The next instant, he just magically has the keys of St Peter along with all of the bishops in Christendom.
In the apostolic and immediate post apostolic era Christianity was spread by word of mouth. Tghe NT was still being written down and certainly the printing press had not been invented yet.
To insure correctness of doctrine the Apostles ordained others. For example Paul trained Timothy. Mark wrote the gospel after being with Peter. Paul spent two weeks with Peter. Saint Jon ordained Ignatius of Antioch where Christianity flourished. Peter ordained Clement who later became Pope. Please note Peter did not name Clement pope, he simply ordained him. All of these are clearcut examples of Apostolic Succession.
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Stating that the RCC is "God's Only True Church" is a bold statement. Do you believe in it? Or do you believe that "it's just religion, so we can hardly expect it to make any logical sense"? I'm really not trying to offend, but that really is what it sounds like you're saying here.
Please pick up a non-biased academic book on the history of Christianity. Then take a trip and visit ALL of Europe. You will see that the Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church is the real church.
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And you're back to trying to prove Peter ...
I thought that Jesus gave the authority to bind and loose to Peter. Are you saying that he gave it to the entire Church? When did that happen? So the entire membership of the Church is the Vicar of Christ? Or are you saying that James and Paul were chosen as Vicar of Christ?
I'm pretty sure I'm misunderstanding that paragraph. Can you please clarify what you meant to say?
As great as Paul was, he did not walk with Jesus and he was not named the Vicar of Christ by Jesus. This is rather simple.
3.) Why do you always fall back into the "Proving Peter" mode. For the purposes of this thread, Peter's authority or lack thereof is completely irrelevant. We're talking about whether Peter passed his authority exclusively to the Bishop of Rome. If he did, then the RCC is one huge step closer to validating their long-standing claim to be God's only True Church.
Here is the proof you seek:
IRENAEUS OF LYONS
"3The blessed Apostles [Peter and Paul], having founded and built up the Church [of Rome], they handed over the office of the episcopate to Linus. Paul makes mention of this Linus in the Epistle to Timothy. To him succeeded Anencletus; and after him, in the third place from the Apostles, Clement was chosen from the episcopate. He had seen the blessed Apostles and was acquainted with them. It might be said that He still heard the echoes of the preaching of the Apostles, and had their traditions before his eyes. And not only he, for there were many still remaining who had been instructed by the Apostles. In the time of Clement, no small dissension having arisen among the brethren in Corinth, the Church in Rome sent a very strong letter to the Corinthians, exhorting them to peace and renewing their faith. To this Clement, Evaristus succeeded; and Alexander succeeded Evaristus. Then, sixth after the Apostles, Sixtus was appointed; after him, Telesphorus, who also was gloriously martyred. Then Hyginus; after him, Pius; and after him, Anicetus. Soter succeeded Anicetus, and now, in the twelfth place after the Apostles, the lot of the episcopate has fallen to Eleutherus. In this order, and by the teaching of the Apostles handed down in the Church, the preaching of the truth has come down to us." (Against Heresies 3.3.3, [A.D. 180])
John Chrysostom
“At all events the master of the whole world, Peter, to whose hands He committed the keys of heaven, whom He commanded to do and to bear all, He bade tarry here [Antioch] for a long period. Thus in His sight our city was equivalent to the whole world. But since I have mentioned Peter, I have perceived a fifth crown woven from him, and this is that this man [Ignatius of Antioch] succeeded to the office after him. For just as any one taking a great stone from a foundation hastens by all means to introduce an equivalent to it, lest he should shake the whole building, and make it more unsound, so, accordingly, when Peter was about to depart from here, the grace of the Spirit introduced another teacher equivalent to Peter, so that the building already completed should not be made more unsound by the insignificance of the successor.” (Homily on St. Ignatius, 4)
AUGUSTINE OF HIPPO
“For if the lineal succession of bishops is to be taken into account, with how much more certainty and benefit to the Church do we reckon back till we reach Peter himself, to whom, as bearing in a figure the whole Church, the Lord said: ‘Upon this rock will I build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it !’ The successor of Peter was Linus, and his successors in unbroken continuity were these: Clement, Anacletus, Evaristus, Alexander, Sixtus, Telesphorus, Iginus, Anicetus, Pius, Soter, Eleutherius, Victor, Zephirinus, Calixtus, Urbanus, Pontianus, Antherus, Fabianus, Cornelius, Lucius, Stephanus, Xystus, Dionysius, Felix, Eutychianus, Gaius, Marcellinus, Marcellus, Eusebius, Miltiades, Sylvester, Marcus, Julius, Liberius, Damasus, and Siricius, whose successor is the present Bishop Anastasius. In this order of succession no Donatist bishop is found. But, reversing the natural course of things, the Donatists sent to Rome from Africa an ordained bishop, who, putting himself at the head of a few Africans in the great metropolis, gave some notoriety to the name of ‘mountain men,’ or Cutzupits, by which they were known” (To Generosus, Epistle 53:2 [A.D. 400], in NPNF1,I:298).
Peter Chrysologus
"We exhort you in every respect, honorable brother, to heed obediently what has been written by the most blessed Pope of the city of Rome, for blessed Peter, who lives and presides in his own see, provides the truth of the faith to those who seek it. For we, by reason of our pursuit of peace and faith, cannot try these cases on the faith without the consent of the Bishop of the city of Rome" (Epistle to Eutyches 25:2 [A.D. 449]).
Chrysologus wrote those words nearly 400 years after Peter's death, yet he says that Peter lives. Thus was the reverence he had for the successor of Peter who was the bishop of Rome.
From the sound of things, Apostolic Succession seems a lot like a magician pulling a rabbit out of his hat. It seems to appear out of nowhere. One second, a bishop is a strictly local leader with no authority outside if his region/city. The next instant, he just magically has the keys of St Peter along with all of the bishops in Christendom. Then just as magically, the Bishop of Rome is the heir of St Peter. Fine and good if you already believe it, but surely you must realize that's a really tough sell to anyone who doesn't already believe it it, right?
Appears out of nowhere, eh?
Apostolic Succession Proved from Scripture and History
Let’s begin by examining the evidence contained in scripture as well as the non-scriptural writings of the earliest Christians for evidence of Apostolic Succession. The Bible contains clear indications that the Apostle Paul taught Apostolic Succession to his disciples and fellow workers, Timothy, Titus and Clement. Here are the relevant passages:
2 Timothy 2:1-2
You then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable men who will also be qualified to teach others.
In the passage above, there are four generations of believers contained in this one passage: 1. Paul himself, 2. Timothy, who was Paul’s disciple, 3. Those whom Timothy would disciple, and 4. Those to whom Timothy’s disciples would preach. Paul commanded Timothy to hand on the gospel to reliable men and further to ensure that those men would also hand on the gospel reliably.
Titus 1:5
The reason I left you in Crete was that you might straighten out what was left unfinished and appoint elders in every town, as I directed you.
In the passage above, we see that Paul was concerned with the appointing of capable leaders in the Cretan church. So in addition to his concern for the content of the message, he is concerned with the succession of the leadership, as well.
Philippians 4:3
Yes, and I ask you, loyal yokefellow, help these women who have contended at my side in the cause of the gospel, along with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.
In the passage from Philippians, Paul mentions one of his fellow workers, Clement, who was ordained by the Apostle Peter and later became the fourth Bishop of Rome (after Peter, Linus, and Anacletus). Like Paul, who addressed to epistles to the Church of Corinth, Clement wrote his own letter to the Corinthians around 80 AD. In that letter, he stated:
"Through countryside and city [the apostles] preached, and they appointed their earliest converts, testing them by the Spirit, to be the bishops and deacons of future believers. Nor was this a novelty, for bishops and deacons had been written about a long time earlier. . . . Our apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife for the office of bishop. For this reason, therefore, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed those who have already been mentioned and afterwards added the further provision that, if they should die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry" (Letter to the Corinthians 42:4–5, 44:1–3 [A.D. 80]).
“We are of opinion, therefore, that those appointed by them, or afterwards by other eminent men, with the consent of the whole church, and who have blamelessly served the flock of Christ, in a humble, peaceable, and disinterested spirit, and have for a long time possessed the good opinion of all, cannot be justly dismissed from the ministry. (ibid.)
From these two passages, we can see that Clement had witnessed his mentors, the Apostles Peter and Paul, naming men to the office of Bishop and had received instructions from them that other men should succeed those Bishops appointed by the Apostles in the event that these first Bishops should die. Thus, history records that both the Apostles and their disciples such as Clement, Timothy and Titus understood and followed the practice of appointing successors to the Apostles in the Church.
While many seem to believe that anyone with a Bible may become a “pastor” by simply gathering around himself a group of fellow believers to form a church, the Bible itself teaches that true leaders in the Church of Jesus Christ must be ordained by those who were ordained before them. This process, known as Apostolic Succession, maintains an unbroken chain of continuity from Jesus, Peter and the Apostles to the leaders of the early Church.
Apostolic Succession Proved from Scripture and History
Let’s begin by examining the evidence contained in scripture as well as the non-scriptural writings of the earliest Christians for evidence of Apostolic Succession. The Bible contains clear indications that the Apostle Paul taught Apostolic Succession to his disciples and fellow workers, Timothy, Titus and Clement. Here are the relevant passages:
2 Timothy 2:1-2
You then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable men who will also be qualified to teach others.
In the passage above, there are four generations of believers contained in this one passage: 1. Paul himself, 2. Timothy, who was Paul’s disciple, 3. Those whom Timothy would disciple, and 4. Those to whom Timothy’s disciples would preach. Paul commanded Timothy to hand on the gospel to reliable men and further to ensure that those men would also hand on the gospel reliably.
Titus 1:5
The reason I left you in Crete was that you might straighten out what was left unfinished and appoint elders in every town, as I directed you.
In the passage above, we see that Paul was concerned with the appointing of capable leaders in the Cretan church. So in addition to his concern for the content of the message, he is concerned with the succession of the leadership, as well.
Philippians 4:3
Yes, and I ask you, loyal yokefellow, help these women who have contended at my side in the cause of the gospel, along with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.
In the passage from Philippians, Paul mentions one of his fellow workers, Clement, who was ordained by the Apostle Peter and later became the fourth Bishop of Rome (after Peter, Linus, and Anacletus). Like Paul, who addressed to epistles to the Church of Corinth, Clement wrote his own letter to the Corinthians around 80 AD. In that letter, he stated:
"Through countryside and city [the apostles] preached, and they appointed their earliest converts, testing them by the Spirit, to be the bishops and deacons of future believers. Nor was this a novelty, for bishops and deacons had been written about a long time earlier. . . . Our apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife for the office of bishop. For this reason, therefore, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed those who have already been mentioned and afterwards added the further provision that, if they should die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry" (Letter to the Corinthians 42:4–5, 44:1–3 [A.D. 80]).
“We are of opinion, therefore, that those appointed by them, or afterwards by other eminent men, with the consent of the whole church, and who have blamelessly served the flock of Christ, in a humble, peaceable, and disinterested spirit, and have for a long time possessed the good opinion of all, cannot be justly dismissed from the ministry. (ibid.)
From these two passages, we can see that Clement had witnessed his mentors, the Apostles Peter and Paul, naming men to the office of Bishop and had received instructions from them that other men should succeed those Bishops appointed by the Apostles in the event that these first Bishops should die. Thus, history records that both the Apostles and their disciples such as Clement, Timothy and Titus understood and followed the practice of appointing successors to the Apostles in the Church.
While many seem to believe that anyone with a Bible may become a “pastor” by simply gathering around himself a group of fellow believers to form a church, the Bible itself teaches that true leaders in the Church of Jesus Christ must be ordained by those who were ordained before them. This process, known as Apostolic Succession, maintains an unbroken chain of continuity from Jesus, Peter and the Apostles to the leaders of the early Church.
And once again you have to filter all of that through the man-made doctrine you have accepted in order to make it mean what you need it to. None of this supports your church. Period.
And once again you have to filter all of that through the man-made doctrine you have accepted in order to make it mean what you need it to. None of this supports your church. Period.
You are supposed to be a Sola Scriptura guy and now you conveniently deny the scriptures. What is going on? All the references are biblical. Therefore, your reply is confusing.
You are supposed to be a Sola Scriptura guy and now you conveniently deny the scriptures. What is going on? All the references are biblical. Therefore, your reply is confusing.
The claim that the first bishop of Rome was Peter, is absolutely wrong. Why? Because the Apostles founded churches in every city, Jerusalem, Antioch and Rome. They ordained elders, bishops, but no Apostle became a bishop himself, or someone have a proof to be otherwise. Apostles are ordained by the Lord himself, as the 12 were and the Apostle Paul witnessed that no man ordained him, but Christ. When got the bishop of Rome a chair that replaces Christ's chair, being the head of the universal church, which is the body of Christ, which head is Christ Himself. Jesus Christ sent the Holy Spirit to be His Vicar on earth. When did the bishop of Rome become a Vicar of Christ, an ambassador has the written letter of Christ as his rightful Apostleship. Peter preached and 3000 were saved, his shadow healed the sick. His authority was visible, the same with the Apostle Paul. The church of Rome claimed their primacy in the second century, and was rejected by the church of Asia (Ephesus), who had the apostolic tradition from the Apostle John, who was the only Apostle left. After the death of John the Roman Church destroyed, excommunicated the church in Asia, they got their primacy through the power of worldly Rome, not through the keys of Peter. Today the Pope is chosen by Cardinals. What keys do they have to give to the one they choose? Now he is an Apostle, did Jesus send him or is he simply a man chosen by man? Does Pope Francis have any authority? He is a Jesuit and has to follow the directions of his head and that is not Christ.
And once again you have to filter all of that through the man-made doctrine you have accepted in order to make it mean what you need it to. None of this supports your church. Period.
No, of course not.
What on earth have we been thinking (for 2,000 years)?
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