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From theologian Jonathan Schroeder which I've read, basically explained the background to Psalm 137:9
a: The Psalmist was referring to the nation of Edom who were once long ago was blood brothers to
Israel ( the twin sons of Isaac, Jacob and Esau. From Jacob came the people of Israel, and from Esau
came the nation of Edom.)
b: There was no love loss between the two brothers, Jacob was a deceiver and a schemer. Esau was
not a spiritual man. The one despised the birthright (Esau) and the other (Jacob) schemed to deceitfully
get it.
c: Their fighting lead to betrayal, hatred, and the breaking of family bonds (Genesis 27)
Lies, betrayal, stolen clothes and stolen blessings, mothers against fathers and brother against brother.
It all ended with one brother fleeing for his life, with the family broken beyond repair.
d: This ill will continued by Edom towards Israel. When the nation of Israel fled Egypt, Moses and the
Israelites petitioned Edom passage through (Edom) on their way to the Promised land. Edom denied the request
of Moses and the Israelites.
e: because of this ruined relationship with Israel, this affected their relationship with the God of Israel,
too. Rather than coming into a close relationship with him, their aggression towards God's people
distanced Edom from the true God.
f: In the days of the kings, when the Philistines and Arabs attacked Jerusalem, Edom did not help Israel.
They turned on them. Read 2 Chronicles 21:16-17.
When the Babylonians attacked Jerusalem years later, Edom was still there to cheer on the enemy
again (Psalm 137:7). The result of this attack by the Babylonians the capital is sacked and the royalty
slaughtered.
g: the five actions that the nation of Edom did after the defeat was like rubbing salt in a wound:
Stood aloof
Looked down on Israel and rejoiced in their misfortune.
Marched through the gates after the defeat
Plundered Israel's wealth
cut down fugitives and handed over survivors.
God promised to one day punish Edom for this, which can be read in Obadiah 1-10
-----------------------------------------------------------------
My conclusion:
That is the godly understanding from where the inspired words of Psalm 137:9 is speaking about.
Edom opposed Israel and collaborated with it's enemies and gloated about such treatment which included
brutally treating Israel's babies. Psalm 137:9 is inspired because of God's Word of what he said in the OT which was repeated in the NT:
Galatians 6:7-8 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. Amanreapswhat he sows. Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
Psalm 137:9 is the reminding of the eventual judgement by the reaping of what Edom sowed.
This is the same God who said such in Galations 6:7-8.
Jesus said God will carry this sentence of judgement over on the Last Day:
John 5:28-30
“Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his
voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.
By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear,
and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.
Last edited by twin.spin; 07-09-2014 at 09:33 PM..
Historical background which lead up to Psalm 137:9 .. which the same God of the NT reminds the believer
There is no rationale that can make that completely non-agape loving verse be inspired from God! The extremes to which literalists have to go to excuse, rationalize and otherwise completely ignore the savagery and barbarity in the OT is precisely WHY they have corrupted Christ's Gospel of love. There is no way on earth to make such savagery and barbarity compatible with agape love. All Christians SHOULD be using agape love as their standard for testing the Spirit of any verse in the Bible to know if it is of God. God IS Spirit and God IS agape love. Instead they use the verses in the Bible as the word of God and corrupt their understanding of God and what is wanted from us with excuses and rationalizations that shouldn't fool a toddler.
Last edited by MysticPhD; 07-09-2014 at 10:35 PM..
So you believe that barbaric atrocity of a verse was inspired by God and reflects the wishes of God for His followers???? You can countenance ANY conceivable rationale that would make it true???
It was a factual and truthful summary of the circumstances surrounding the verse and the carry over of the same view found in the NT.
Romans 12:19 Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” says the Lord.
Deut. 32:35
Galatians 6:7-8 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows.
Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
John 5:28-30
“Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his
voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.
By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear,
and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.
Psalm 137:9 is the result of Edom's
sowing to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction
Twinspin, God does not do battle against flesh and blood, he defeats his enemies by disarming them in the spiritual realm, if you read the sermon of the mount a message Jesus gave directly from the heart of the unchanging God you would hopefully understand this.
the point remains that it is a vengeful and vicious perception, so why endorse it?
Because mankind(especially religious minded mankind)thinks God is at war with whoever their enemies are. The Battle as always belonged to the Lord, but man took the battle against man and said it was God.
From theologian Jonathan Schroeder which I've read, basically explained the background to Psalm 137:9
a: The Psalmist was referring to the nation of Edom who were once long ago was blood brothers to
Israel ( the twin sons of Isaac, Jacob and Esau. From Jacob came the people of Israel, and from Esau
came the nation of Edom.)
b: There was no love loss between the two brothers, Jacob was a deceiver and a schemer. Esau was
not a spiritual man. The one despised the birthright (Esau) and the other (Jacob) schemed to deceitfully
get it.
c: Their fighting lead to betrayal, hatred, and the breaking of family bonds (Genesis 27)
Lies, betrayal, stolen clothes and stolen blessings, mothers against fathers and brother against brother.
It all ended with one brother fleeing for his life, with the family broken beyond repair.
d: This ill will continued by Edom toward Israel. When the nation of Israel fled Egypt, Moses and the
Israelites petitioned Edom passage through (Edom) on their way to the Promised land. Edom denied the request
of Moses and the Israelites.
e: because of this ruined relationship with Israel, this affected their relationship with the God of Israel,
too. Rather than coming into a close relationship with him, their aggression towards God's people
distanced Edom from the true God.
f: In the days of the kings, when the Philistines and Arabs attacked Jerusalem, Edom did not help Israel.
They turned on them. Read 2 Chronicles 21:16-17.
When the Babylonians attacked Jerusalem years later, Edom was still there to cheer on the enemy
again (Psalm 137:7). The result of this attack by the Babylonians the capital is sacked and the royalty
slaughtered.
g: the five actions that the nation of Edom did after the defeat was like rubbing salt in a wound:
Stood aloof
Looked down on Israel and rejoiced in their misfortune.
Marched through the gates after the defeat
Plundered Israel's wealth
cut down fugitives and handed over survivors.
God promised to one day punish Edom for this, which can be read in Obadiah 1-10
-----------------------------------------------------------------
My conclusion:
That is the godly understanding from where the inspired words of Psalm 137:9 is speaking about.
Edom opposed Israel and collaborated with it's enemies and gloated about such treatment which included
brutally treating Israel's babies. Psalm 137:9 is inspired because of God's Word of what he said in the OT which was repeated in the NT:
Galatians 6:7-8 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. Amanreapswhat he sows. Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
Psalm 137:9 is the reminding of the eventual judgement by the reaping of what Edom sowed.
This is the same God who said such in Galations 6:7-8.
Jesus said God will carry this sentence of judgement over on the Last Day:
John 5:28-30
“Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his
voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.
By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear,
and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.
Amen, Twin !
It is always nice to understand the history of the scripture especially when we come across scripture such as verse 9 in Psalms 139. Yet, we see how those who have accused us of believing in a barbaric of a monster god, don't even try to understand and find out why such a verse in the scripture was permitted. But do the exact thing they have accused the Christian of doing !
My Bible has a little section giving somewhat of understanding of what they call the Imprecatory Psalms !
Several psalms such as 35, 59, 69, 70, 109, 137, 139, 140, contain strong cries for vengeance and thus have been called imprecatory or cursing psalms. And in these the author prays that God may afflict the evildoer with just punishment. We must be clear in our understanding and careful in evaluation of the imprecatory psalms.
First of all, while these psalms may to some extent represent personal outbursts of vindictiveness against bitter enemies, they are fundamentally pleas for the righteous judgment of God upon those who resist Him and His purpose, namely, the evildoers. These pleas arise out of the firm Hebrew conviction that God administers justice in this life and that every person will receive what is justly deserved here and now.
Like you stated and showed in your post Twin, as the scripture teaches, God is not mocked a man will reap what he sown and this is how the Hebrews saw it in their time !
Yet, moreover, we must remember that in poetry strong emotions are expressed by the use of strong language. As the psalmists expressed the pain of unjust suffering, they called upon God to hasten His work of righteous judgment. Some of the language of imprecation which was acceptable in that time and culture may seem harsh to our ears. But the theme of God's righteous judgment is altogether proper, a theme echoed in the NT.
We ask ourselves why does God permit such language in inspired Scripture ? Certainly it was a part of the original writers life and setting. But perhaps its purpose is to express God's approval of a passionate hatred of evil, as God reads the heart and motive !! Christians correctly stress love for people, but let us not become apathetic toward evil and evil deeds, amen !!
And it does seem that these outburst of vengeances in the Psalms is not the same to what we read in some post here, the bitterness, ill-will toward the Christian and what is wrote in the OT and NT about God's truth in His righteous judgment against sin and evil.
As some will reap what they have sown in this life, believing they have the truth and all the time they have been deceived by the self made man, their god (self), the wayward interpretation and opinions of what God speaks and has spoken in His righteous love, justice !
Truly one definitely can discern the anger, hatred, bitterness, un-forgiveness, etc., reeking in the testimony of what is believed toward God, OT, and NT and in all this are proclaiming to know God's agape love which anyone walking in the Spirit can and will discern a life that is not changed by the attitude that is not coming from a heart walking in the love of God.
Amen, Twin !
It is always nice to understand the history of the scripture especially when we come across scripture such as verse 9 in Psalms 139. Yet, we see how those who have accused us of believing in a barbaric of a monster god, don't even try to understand and find out why such a verse in the scripture was permitted. But do the exact thing they have accused the Christian of doing !
My Bible has a little section giving somewhat of understanding of what they call the Imprecatory Psalms !
Several psalms such as 35, 59, 69, 70, 109, 137, 139, 140, contain strong cries for vengeance and thus have been called imprecatory or cursing psalms. And in these the author prays that God may afflict the evildoer with just punishment. We must be clear in our understanding and careful in evaluation of the imprecatory psalms.
First of all, while these psalms may to some extent represent personal outbursts of vindictiveness against bitter enemies, they are fundamentally pleas for the righteous judgment of God upon those who resist Him and His purpose, namely, the evildoers. These pleas arise out of the firm Hebrew conviction that God administers justice in this life and that every person will receive what is justly deserved here and now.
Like you stated and showed in your post Twin, as the scripture teaches, God is not mocked a man will reap what he sown and this is how the Hebrews saw it in their time !
Yet, moreover, we must remember that in poetry strong emotions are expressed by the use of strong language. As the psalmists expressed the pain of unjust suffering, they called upon God to hasten His work of righteous judgment. Some of the language of imprecation which was acceptable in that time and culture may seem harsh to our ears. But the theme of God's righteous judgment is altogether proper, a theme echoed in the NT.
We ask ourselves why does God permit such language in inspired Scripture ? Certainly it was a part of the original writers life and setting. But perhaps its purpose is to express God's approval of a passionate hatred of evil, as God reads the heart and motive !! Christians correctly stress love for people, but let us not become apathetic toward evil and evil deeds, amen !!
And it does seem that these outburst of vengeances in the Psalms is not the same to what we read in some post here, the bitterness, ill-will toward the Christian and what is wrote in the OT and NT about God's truth in His righteous judgment against sin and evil.
As some will reap what they have sown in this life, believing they have the truth and all the time they have been deceived by the self made man, their god (self), the wayward interpretation and opinions of what God speaks and has spoken in His righteous love, justice !
Truly one definitely can discern the anger, hatred, bitterness, un-forgiveness, etc., reeking in the testimony of what is believed toward God, OT, and NT and in all this are proclaiming to know God's agape love which anyone walking in the Spirit can and will discern a life that is not changed by the attitude that is not coming from a heart walking in the love of God.
That was informative and constructive reading. Thanks Cyber.
The reason I made reference to this was because another point that was being made by the theologian was God's concern from the outcry of his chosen people that to them Edom "should have had our backs covered" as it were and out of love for his chosen people God reminds them (and us) "Don't worry, I've got your back".
That's why we read in the NT about God telling us to not take revenge \ bless those who speak evil against us .... simply because God has our back.
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Historical background which lead up to Psalm 137:9 .. which the same God of the NT reminds the believer
