Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
CLV 2Pet 3:15 And be deeming the patience of our Lord salvation, according as our beloved brother Paul also writes to you, according to the wisdom given to him,
CLV 2Pet 3:16 as also in all the epistles, speaking in them concerning these things, in which are some things hard to apprehend, which the unlearned and unstable are twisting, as the rest of the scriptures also, toward their own destruction.
Where is Paul called an Apostle in those verses?...All it states is that he wrote epistles...
CLV Rom 11:13 Now to you am I saying, to the nations, in as much as, indeed, then, I am the apostle of the nations, I am glorifying my dispensation,
CLV 1Cor 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, who am not competent to be called an apostle, because I persecute the ecclesia of God.
CLV 1Cor 15:10 Yet, in the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace, which is in me, did not come to be for naught, but more exceedingly than all of them toil I yet not I, but the grace of God which is with me.
CLV Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle (not from men, neither through a man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, Who rouses Him from among the dead),
CLV Rom 11:13 Now to you am I saying, to the nations, in as much as, indeed, then, I am the apostle of the nations, I am glorifying my dispensation,
CLV 1Cor 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, who am not competent to be called an apostle, because I persecute the ecclesia of God.
CLV 1Cor 15:10 Yet, in the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace, which is in me, did not come to be for naught, but more exceedingly than all of them toil I yet not I, but the grace of God which is with me.
CLV Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle (not from men, neither through a man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, Who rouses Him from among the dead),
I kinda think if he knew people would take his letters "literally" he may have been more careful. I can see him putting his hand on his forehead and saying "Jesus guys, I didn't mean it like that!"
I kinda think if he knew people would take his letters "literally" he may have been more careful. I can see him putting his hand on his forehead and saying "Jesus guys, I didn't mean it like that!"
On the contrary I see Paul as having put a good deal of thought into the things he said and intending it to be read as written. It adds up to a specific theology in line with the apocalyptic expectations of the day plus an explanation of why this Messiah figure died instead of ushering in the Messianic Age. In Paul's explanation, Jesus did initiate the Messianic Age.
But be careful not to confuse the seven authentic letters of Paul with the later pseudo-Pauline writings written after it became obvious that the end of days was not going to happen next Tuesday after all. Or with the writings of Luke in Acts, who had his own agenda.
Exactly. Anyone can CLAIM anything they want. I have mental patients who see and talk to God daily so they claim......
I see nothing in Paul's writings that is in any way, of a useful or healthy philosophy. Especially Compared to, say Buddhism, which has a philosophical bent that can be used to improve and enhance one's life. There is nothing groundbreaking or "enlightened" about Paul.
What I do see in Paul is a person who suffered clearly from mental illness. Judging from the highs and lows of his writings, his attitude seemed to vary from elated to depressed, not much in between, which is a classic symptom of bipolar disorder.
In addition, that miraculous "Vision from Jesus " on the Road to Damascus can be explained by something rational and scientific. It is a common symptom of focal seizures. A Person will see a bright, blinding flashing light and often hear voices shortly thereafter. Some patients will afterwards go into a postictal state where they are confused, have auditory hallucinations, some of which can last upwards to an hour. This explains the voices heard by Paul. It was not the voice of Jesus, it was the voices in his own head, sparked by newurons not firing as they should.
As for the religious nature of the hallucination, simply look at the institutionalized schizophrenic populace and observe that religious delusion are common. It goes along with the grandiose thinking, the "God Complex" that Paul and others have in common.
When I read Paul, I read nothing more than the misunderstood ramblings of a mentally ill man who suffered from brain damage secondary to seizures. I do not see an enlightened thinker, an apostle, a prophet or anything along those lines. I see nothing Divine, nothing useful and nothing to be emulated.
I see people who do emulate Paul, and they too have so many dysfunctions and neurosis in life. Further proof that Paul's philosophy should be avoided. It is NOT a healthy way of thinking, and it is not something I would ever choose to follow.
Exactly. Anyone can CLAIM anything they want. I have mental patients who see and talk to God daily so they claim......
I see nothing in Paul's writings that is in any way, of a useful or healthy philosophy. Especially Compared to, say Buddhism, which has a philosophical bent that can be used to improve and enhance one's life. There is nothing groundbreaking or "enlightened" about Paul.
What I do see in Paul is a person who suffered clearly from mental illness. Judging from the highs and lows of his writings, his attitude seemed to vary from elated to depressed, not much in between, which is a classic symptom of bipolar disorder.
In addition, that miraculous "Vision from Jesus " on the Road to Damascus can be explained by something rational and scientific. It is a common symptom of focal seizures. A Person will see a bright, blinding flashing light and often hear voices shortly thereafter. Some patients will afterwards go into a postictal state where they are confused, have auditory hallucinations, some of which can last upwards to an hour. This explains the voices heard by Paul. It was not the voice of Jesus, it was the voices in his own head, sparked by newurons not firing as they should.
As for the religious nature of the hallucination, simply look at the institutionalized schizophrenic populace and observe that religious delusion are common. It goes along with the grandiose thinking, the "God Complex" that Paul and others have in common.
When I read Paul, I read nothing more than the misunderstood ramblings of a mentally ill man who suffered from brain damage secondary to seizures. I do not see an enlightened thinker, an apostle, a prophet or anything along those lines. I see nothing Divine, nothing useful and nothing to be emulated.
I see people who do emulate Paul, and they too have so many dysfunctions and neurosis in life. Further proof that Paul's philosophy should be avoided. It is NOT a healthy way of thinking, and it is not something I would ever choose to follow.
In what way do you see people emulating Paul? As far as I know, Paul never asked anyone to emulate him. Paul was presenting a new take on the Jesus movement to include gentiles and to explain away some troubling issues, like why did the messiah get killed? He was not presenting an original philosophy.
BTW the Road to Damascus story is told by Luke in Acts, written decades after Paul was dead. Luke is well known as a clever storyteller. Paul himself never gives much in the way of details. It may be that he never had any such vision, but needed to brand himself as an Apostle to sell his variation of the Jesus movement. What better way than to have gotten new information direct from Jesus?
If one ignores the seizure hypothesis, what exactly do you see as the "ramblings of a mentally ill man"? You say you have read Paul, so please be specific.
I have read Paul. Have you ever noticed the egotism, and how Paul seems to alternate periods of elation with periods of depression ?
As for those who emulate Paul, I refer to the Paulines as I call them, people who quickly quote Paul in any given situation. I think with Paul's Ego, if he were alive today he would be elated that so many people follow his teachings above all else.
As I mentioned, it was Paul's neurological disorder that caused the supposed "revelation" from Jesus. I do not believe for one second that Jesus appeared to Paul. Jesus was dead, and Paul claims to have never met Jesus in real life. (Further proof that Jesus was a minor figure during his own life) In ancient times, due to lack of understanding of medicine, people often tried to explain the unknown as "Divine " "Miraculous" or "demonic" depending on one's mood and ideas at the time. The Oracle of Delphi was one example, most people at the time believed that a person entering the oracle was placed into a spiritual trance and given revelations and guidance from the other world. In fact, the trance was caused by a subterranean fault, which caused noxious gasses to form, intoxicating those who sat inside. They had no knowledge of biochemistry or geology as to the cause, they assumed that Zeus and Apollo were behind it. Similarly, anyone in ancient India who was corn with a birth defect was considered to be a manifestation of a god, especially if one had multiple limbs., We even saw that a few years ago in India where a minority was convinced that a child born with four arms was the reincarnation of Lakshmi. Throughout history, those with birth defects, mental disorders and even hallucinations were sometimes seen not as outcasts, but as prophets or gods. Such was the case with Paul. Paul clearly suffered from neuro-psych disorders, and yet people who did not understand medicine, and likewise were intimidated by Paul's reputation as a "tough guy" (He was, after all, a killer and persecutor of Christians) probably had a added dose of fear and intimidation added to Paul's otherwise odd behaviors.
My point remains, Paul was NOT an enlightened or insightful person, and there remains very little about his philosophy which is pertinent or useful in the 21st century. He is not on the level off say Ghandi, or Buddha, or even St Francis of Assisi in the pantheon of spiritual leaders. And he certainly cannot compete in a realm of day to day philosophy. Why use him ? Why refer to Paul ? There are hundreds of ffar better thinkers, philosopher and spiritual leaders from whom one can learn. The volumes of books written by these leaders is far superior spiritually as well as emotionally and much healthier andd applicable to 21st century life than the letters of Paul. Why choose something inferior and base an entire religion and way of life on it when there are so many more choices out there ? Why would a person choose to do that to himself? Is self loathing that deeply ingrained?
I have read Paul. Have you ever noticed the egotism, and how Paul seems to alternate periods of elation with periods of depression?
Actually no, I have not noticed that. Bipolar disorder would exhibit one or the other most of the time. I definitely do not see that. Can you give examples where there is no credible cause given for happiness or unhappiness? That would be possible symptoms of bipolar disorder.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LargeKingCat
As for those who emulate Paul, I refer to the Paulines as I call them, people who quickly quote Paul in any given situation. I think with Paul's Ego, if he were alive today he would be elated that so many people follow his teachings above all else.
Emulating Paul would mean writing letters and traveling around reaching. Not many people do that. Quoting Paul is not emulating him. And from what I have seen, those who quote Paul very often do so with out of context one-liners and in opposition to his actual meaning.
A major example: The idea of ‘faith alone’ is not in Paul. That particular phrase was inserted by Martin Luther in the 16th century. The ‘works’ that the sola fides adherents refer to as unnecessary are not good deeds but Jewish rituals that Paul says are not required of gentile converts. This is made very clear in Romans. Paul would be shocked and horrified at what today’s ‘Paulines’ say he said.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LargeKingCat
As I mentioned, it was Paul's neurological disorder that caused the supposed "revelation" from Jesus. I do not believe for one second that Jesus appeared to Paul. Jesus was dead, and Paul claims to have never met Jesus in real life. (Further proof that Jesus was a minor figure during his own life)
We cannot believe Luke about Paul’s vision. We cannot believe Luke about Paul at all.
When Paul wants to emphasize his strict Jewish background, thereby entitling him to talk about the Law, he says among other things that he is “in regard to the law, a Pharisee” (Phil 3:5). At that time the dominant sect of Pharisees was the House of Shammai, who were sticklers for obeying the letter of the Law. But Luke in Acts 22:3 has Paul claim to have trained under Gamaliel, a notable Pharisee of the House of Hillel (and the son of Hillel himself). The House of Hillel were much more interested in the spirit of the Law and somewhat liberal about the letter. For Paul to boast about being a Hillel Pharisee would undercut the impression he was trying to establish. They do not call Luke the Storyteller for nothing. (BTW we can see Jesus as having been influenced by Hillel, who – according to the timeframes implied in the Gospels – would have been head of the Sanhedrin when Jesus was learning about Judaism.)
I do not believe that Jesus appeared to Paul either. I think he made that up to provide justification for his points of view.
There are several main issues that Paul addresses:
Jesus was thought to be the messiah and harbinger of the messianic age in which all the wrongs of the past would be rectified. But Jesus got himself executed. Paul’s ‘gospel’, that he claims came directly from Jesus, said that the death of Jesus was a sin atonement sacrifice on behalf of all mankind. Paul pulls together many diverse Jewish customs and scriptural references to justify this idea. In truth, these different elements do not fit well together. But that was willingly overlooked by his audience who jumped at the chance to have an explanation for why their messiah figure got crucified instead of opening the messianic age.
It was already a widespread belief that Jesus was resurrected from the dead. Paul describes this in terms of the apocalyptic expectations of the day, that all who lived are to be raised from the dead and judged. The resurrection of Jesus was the proof that the promise was for real and the general resurrection was imminent. In other words Jesus did open the messianic age, according to Paul. Together with Paul’s explanation of the crucifixion, this approach established a stronger foundation for a seemingly coherent and consistent Jesus movement. Later the continued non-event of a real messianic age arriving would inspire the Gospels and their various explanations, but that is another story.
Paul insisted that gentiles could become Jesus followers without first becoming Jews, that is, that the Jesus movement was not just a branch of Judaism. Whether he considered this a necessary step in establishing the messianic era, as per the ‘all nations’ references in Isaiah, or whether he just had some non-Jewish friends is not known. But Paul pursued this program with extensive arguments that unfortunately are generally misunderstood and quoted out of context by the ‘Paulines’.
An additional contribution of Paul is the Eucharist formula. There were already communal meals in the Jesus communities. Paul seeks to impose order on these events and give them a more spiritual character by introducing this formula. It is a reference to a Passover Seder as performed by Jews of the Diaspora who had no Temple-sacrificed lamb available. The use of bread and wine would be more familiar to Paul’s main audience of Diaspora Jews and more practical for frequent gatherings. As a side benefit it echoes the bread and wine rituals of the Dionysian cults thereby co-opting notions familiar to gentiles.
Paul not having met Jesus in real life tells us nothing about the popularity of Jesus when alive. Again it is only Luke in Acts that tells us about Paul having lived in Jerusalem. Paul says nothing of this. In Galatians Paul seems to imply that he had not yet been to Jerusalem.
13 For you have heard of my previous way of life in Judaism, how intensely I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it. 14 I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers. 15 But when God, who set me apart from my mother’s womb and called me by his grace, was pleased 16 to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, my immediate response was not to consult any human being. 17 I did not go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went into Arabia. Later I returned to Damascus.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LargeKingCat
In ancient times, due to lack of understanding of medicine, people often tried to explain the unknown as "Divine " "Miraculous" or "demonic" depending on one's mood and ideas at the time. The Oracle of Delphi was one example, most people at the time believed that a person entering the oracle was placed into a spiritual trance and given revelations and guidance from the other world. In fact, the trance was caused by a subterranean fault, which caused noxious gasses to form, intoxicating those who sat inside. They had no knowledge of biochemistry or geology as to the cause, they assumed that Zeus and Apollo were behind it. Similarly, anyone in ancient India who was corn with a birth defect was considered to be a manifestation of a god, especially if one had multiple limbs., We even saw that a few years ago in India where a minority was convinced that a child born with four arms was the reincarnation of Lakshmi. Throughout history, those with birth defects, mental disorders and even hallucinations were sometimes seen not as outcasts, but as prophets or gods. Such was the case with Paul. Paul clearly suffered from neuro-psych disorders, and yet people who did not understand medicine, and likewise were intimidated by Paul's reputation as a "tough guy" (He was, after all, a killer and persecutor of Christians) probably had a added dose of fear and intimidation added to Paul's otherwise odd behaviors.
Noxious gases forming in a subterranean fault that intoxicate people? Sounds more like such gases would make them sick or even kill them.
And there is this:
Quote:
Recent geological investigations have shown that gas emissions from a geologic chasm in the earth could have inspired the Delphic Oracle to "connect with the divine." Some researchers suggest the possibility that ethylene gas caused the Pythia's state of inspiration. However, Lehoux argues that ethylene is "impossible" and benzene is "crucially underdetermined." Others argue instead that methane might have been the gas emitted from the chasm, or CO2 and H2S, arguing that the chasm itself might have been a seismic ground rupture. The idea that the Pythia spoke gibberish which was interpreted by the priests and turned into poetic iambic pentameter has been challenged by scholars such as Joseph Fontenrose and Lisa Maurizio, who argue that the ancient sources uniformly represent the Pythia speaking intelligibly, and giving prophecies in her own voice.
Sounds more like an explanation in search of evidence. And no one explains why the Oracle (Pythia) was the only one ever affected. More likely this was a sophisticated and practiced version of today’s fortunetellers. We may note that those seeking oracles paid for the service, making a controllable process and predictable outcome important elements. Girls whacked out on fumes might do or say anything (like insult the audience!) or even fall asleep. Not good for business.
Unlike Luke, Paul does not make a big deal of his alleged vision, concentrating much more on what Jesus supposedly told him than on the event itself. I see no reason why his audience would consider him to be anything extraordinary other than claiming to have gotten information from Jesus. Considering that his audience already believed Jesus rose from the dead, visions of Jesus would not be so out of the ordinary. In fact it would be a boost to their faith. Of course we do not know how seriously his audience took that claim. What we do know is that the memes he introduced (sacrifice, resurrection, eligibility of gentiles, communal ritual) took hold. The sacrifice/resurrection explanations alone would have been most welcome.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LargeKingCat
My point remains, Paul was NOT an enlightened or insightful person, and there remains very little about his philosophy which is pertinent or useful in the 21st century. He is not on the level off say Ghandi, or Buddha, or even St Francis of Assisi in the pantheon of spiritual leaders. And he certainly cannot compete in a realm of day to day philosophy. Why use him ? Why refer to Paul ? There are hundreds of ffar better thinkers, philosopher and spiritual leaders from whom one can learn. The volumes of books written by these leaders is far superior spiritually as well as emotionally and much healthier andd applicable to 21st century life than the letters of Paul. Why choose something inferior and base an entire religion and way of life on it when there are so many more choices out there ? Why would a person choose to do that to himself? Is self loathing that deeply ingrained?
I believe I have shown that Paul was very clever indeed and did much to sustain and broaden a religion that might otherwise not have long survived the subsequent destruction of Jerusalem, the ‘home base’ of the original Jesus movement.
And again, Paul did not present any form of new philosophy. He introduced new theological elements that can be used to justify belief in a particular family of religions. But as far as how to behave (other than to avoid sin – hardly new stuff) Paul does not really say anything. What exactly do you think Paul’s philosophy was that you find so horrendous? Or are you perhaps mistaking more recent gross and really indefensible misinterpretations of Paul for Paul himself?
And again, please present specific evidence for Paul being a whacko that is not easily attributable to slick salesmanship of new ideas.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
