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Belief in it is the root of all evil. Acceptance of there is no literal separation from God, leaves the fundamentalist system in ruins. How can it judge and condemn you to hell if there is no separation?.
I do believe in continuous life (a reincarnation of sorts). I don't think there will be any souls left that haven't reached the point that God desires. Should there be such a soul, yes that soul would be eliminated. I think there has to be a time when it all stops and we get on with everlasting life. There is the possibility that continuous life never ends for some and some reach God's standards and move on to everlasting life.
There seems to be too much info in the Bible suggesting a separation from God and the pain and suffering of that circumstance to just dismiss it. Honestly, I haven't used a microscope to make many observations because I am not separated from God and don't plan to be. There is the passage in the Bible that talks about "one will be taken and one left behind". Does that mean that the one left behind is to continue on or does it mean that the one left behind is lost? I don't know for sure. I'd have to go back and read everything relating to being lost in order to try and make a more solid determination. I really haven't done that. I'm sorry.
There is also too much info in the Bible not to consider that this earth - with the absence of anything bad - is a place of everlasting life. For that to be true, all continuous life must cease and everlasting life must begin. If so, does that mean that everyone has reached God's standards or that the lost have been eliminated? Again, I am still working through that.
Hi Ella, Thanks for responding! At first, I was only trying to understand your perspective so that I can read your posts more through your eyes, but now you've given some more good food for thought that I'd like to comment on.
I've looked at the idea of reincarnation or what you term "continuous life" years ago when I was seeking different paths and after a lot of tearing apart and examining, I finally rejected it. This would be a whole other thread, though. Well, I guess I could give you my conclusion. If this is off-topic, I can start a new thread. Basically, I believe we are all a thread in this tapestry that God is weaving. I don't think that we need to keep experiencing different things, individually in order to finally reject non-love and come to God (love.) If we did, then that would essentially mean there are a limited number of combinations of life experiences and souls/personalities/mindsets/etc. that would reach out and finally undestand the power and beauty of Love. I believe all human beings, in all of our varied ways of being, our varied life experiences and what those life experiences did to us, either for the good or for the bad, ALL of them will come to the knowledge of God (LOVE). I believe there is an unlimited, never-ending combination of souls/life experiences.
Sometimes I think our lives (the threads in the tapestry) are what the "books of life" really are. Each life, a book. Just like the bible.... a book. A CONTRAST of love and non-love. How LOVE conquered in a life, and how NON-LOVE defeated and destroyed in a life. The love and non-love within a unique individual, and how that person affected the world around him, as well as how other's love and non-love affected him. As well as humanity as a WHOLE. Where Love lifted up, and where non-love pushed down. Each of us, a thread, a book...
I believe that the refining fire will touch us ALL individually, as well as a on a WHOLE. It will be personal (our own book, our own lives, thoughts and actions and the non-love within our own book) as well as on a WHOLE: seeing how humanity and CREATION was affected by NON-LOVE. The trickle down. This is a massive picture. Consider, how one small act of non-love can create generations of darkness. A family disowning their child. The child (adult) goes on to become an alcoholic and then, in turn, abandons her OWN children, who in turn start to get into a life of crime because they are living on the streets. And then the opposite of how LOVE turned things around. One of the disowned child's children, goes on to meet someone who shows them love and caring and their lives are turned around and they begin to reach out and help other homeless kids. We will all come to truly understand the destructive nature of NON-LOVE. We are going to come to truly understand that LOVE does conquer all. The true power of LOVE.
I honestly do not believe any one of us needs to go through multiple lives. I believe God is able to use whatever thread comes His way. No matter how far in the darkness we end up walking, God's hand (LOVE) is always there and will pull us back. I think we ALL have a lot of growing to do when we pass on and are confronted with the most powerful thing there is: LOVE (God).
As far as the passage of "one will be taken, and one left behind". or "Two women will be working in the field, one will be taken, one left behind". I see the "TWO" women as being the same woman. It's not two different women. It's just one woman in the field.
Hi Ella, Thanks for responding! At first, I was only trying to understand your perspective so that I can read your posts more through your eyes, but now you've given some more good food for thought that I'd like to comment on.
I've looked at the idea of reincarnation or what you term "continuous life" years ago when I was seeking different paths and after a lot of tearing apart and examining, I finally rejected it. This would be a whole other thread, though.
The idea of continuous life is a really strange one in this society. I don't use the word reincarnation because of its connotations. The Hindus believe in reincarnation, but... They believe that you start out as a bug (or some such) and work your way up through the animal kingdom until you become a human. If you are not a "good" human, then you have to start all over as a bug again. er...uh...no. That totally goes against my grain.
Yeah, I think a lot of people reject it. Even I am looking for different answers. I've toyed with this for several decades. I'm still trying to put the pieces together.
Quote:
Originally Posted by .sparrow.
Well, I guess I could give you my conclusion. If this is off-topic, I can start a new thread. Basically, I believe we are all a thread in this tapestry that God is weaving. I don't think that we need to keep experiencing different things, individually in order to finally reject non-love and come to God (love.) If we did, then that would essentially mean there are a limited number of combinations of life experiences and souls/personalities/mindsets/etc. that would reach out and finally undestand the power and beauty of Love. I believe all human beings, in all of our varied ways of being, our varied life experiences and what those life experiences did to us, either for the good or for the bad, ALL of them will come to the knowledge of God (LOVE). I believe there is an unlimited, never-ending combination of souls/life experiences.
I totally understand what you are saying here. I do not disagree with you at all. These are basically my beliefs, too. I totally believe that the idea is to reject non-love and come to love.
I think what I am pondering is the time-line of it all.
Church teaches that we have to love God, accept Jesus as the son of God, and believe that he died on the cross for our sins. Then we are saved and forgiven of all our sins. Then when we die we go straight to heaven and have perfect, everlasting life.
My problem is that many of the Christians - including myself sometimes - are horrible rotten people who have not moved away from non-love into a state of love. The Bible tells us that we are all sinners and fall short of the glory of God, which is why we need Jesus to be forgiven.
But if one can just live his life any way he wants to (in non-love) and then on his deathbed accepts Jesus and is forgiven, what is the point of trying to live a "good" life? I think we all see really good people in this life and we see mediocre people in this life and we see really bad people who are Christians in this life. How can we all be equal in the eyes of God? Everlasting life does not come in degrees. You don't get a bigger mansion in heaven for the better you have lived. If we accept Jesus and we are forgiven of our sins - no matter what they are - then the worst of the worst Christians are the same as the best of the best Christians. That just doesn't congeal for me. There has to be something more to it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by .sparrow.
Sometimes I think our lives (the threads in the tapestry) are what the "books of life" really are. Each life, a book. Just like the bible.... a book. A CONTRAST of love and non-love. How LOVE conquered in a life, and how NON-LOVE defeated and destroyed in a life. The love and non-love within a unique individual, and how that person affected the world around him, as well as how other's love and non-love affected him. As well as humanity as a WHOLE. Where Love lifted up, and where non-love pushed down. Each of us, a thread, a book...
Yes. I don't disagree with this at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by .sparrow.
I believe that the refining fire will touch us ALL individually, as well as a on a WHOLE. It will be personal (our own book, our own lives, thoughts and actions and the non-love within our own book) as well as on a WHOLE: seeing how humanity and CREATION was affected by NON-LOVE. The trickle down. This is a massive picture. Consider, how one small act of non-love can create generations of darkness. A family disowning their child. The child (adult) goes on to become an alcoholic and then, in turn, abandons her OWN children, who in turn start to get into a life of crime because they are living on the streets. And then the opposite of how LOVE turned things around. One of the disowned child's children, goes on to meet someone who shows them love and caring and their lives are turned around and they begin to reach out and help other homeless kids. We will all come to truly understand the destructive nature of NON-LOVE. We are going to come to truly understand that LOVE does conquer all. The true power of LOVE.
I'm not familiar with "refining fire". Would explain this to me?
Again, I don't disagree with what you are saying. I totally understand the dynamic of non-love and love.
Quote:
Originally Posted by .sparrow.
I honestly do not believe any one of us needs to go through multiple lives. I believe God is able to use whatever thread comes His way. No matter how far in the darkness we end up walking, God's hand (LOVE) is always there and will pull us back. I think we ALL have a lot of growing to do when we pass on and are confronted with the most powerful thing there is: LOVE (God).
Ok. I understand this. I think this is going to be our disagreeing point. I can't wrap my mind around this one lifetime being enough for us to reach the level that, I believe, God wants us to reach. It is all in how we interpret what God wants us to be and what is the price of perfect, everlasting life. I think the price is a lot higher than we can pay in this one lifetime.
Quote:
Originally Posted by .sparrow.
As far as the passage of "one will be taken, and one left behind". or "Two women will be working in the field, one will be taken, one left behind". I see the "TWO" women as being the same woman. It's not two different women. It's just one woman in the field.
peace,
sparrow
How would this work? Only one woman?
Yes, I think a thread where we can discuss this would be very interesting.
Yes, I think a thread where we can discuss this would be very interesting.
Time. Think of what time is. One of the big mistakes people make is thinking in human time scales only. "time" is state changes. some fast and some slow. Any state change that happens with regular repeating intervals can be called a tick.
the now that is gone, is gone!, and a new now forms.
Time. Think of what time is. One of the big mistakes people make is thinking in human time scales only. "time" is state changes. some fast and some slow. Any state change that happens with regular repeating intervals can be called a tick.
the now that is gone, is gone!, and a new now forms.
Ok. I am officially lost, Arach. Sometimes, I'm a little slow on the uptake.
The idea of continuous life is a really strange one in this society. I don't use the word reincarnation because of its connotations. The Hindus believe in reincarnation, but... They believe that you start out as a bug (or some such) and work your way up through the animal kingdom until you become a human. If you are not a "good" human, then you have to start all over as a bug again. er...uh...no. That totally goes against my grain.
Yeah, I totally don't agree with that at all. And that is actually not even my definition of reincarnation, my def. of reincarnation (what I was responding to) was basically your definition, I believe. (the continuous human lives.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ella Parr
I totally understand what you are saying here. I do not disagree with you at all. These are basically my beliefs, too. I totally believe that the idea is to reject non-love and come to love.
I think what I am pondering is the time-line of it all.
Church teaches that we have to love God, accept Jesus as the son of God, and believe that he died on the cross for our sins. Then we are saved and forgiven of all our sins. Then when we die we go straight to heaven and have perfect, everlasting life.
My problem is that many of the Christians - including myself sometimes - are horrible rotten people who have not moved away from non-love into a state of love. The Bible tells us that we are all sinners and fall short of the glory of God, which is why we need Jesus to be forgiven.
But if one can just live his life any way he wants to (in non-love) and then on his deathbed accepts Jesus and is forgiven, what is the point of trying to live a "good" life? I think we all see really good people in this life and we see mediocre people in this life and we see really bad people who are Christians in this life. How can we all be equal in the eyes of God? Everlasting life does not come in degrees. You don't get a bigger mansion in heaven for the better you have lived. If we accept Jesus and we are forgiven of our sins - no matter what they are - then the worst of the worst Christians are the same as the best of the best Christians. That just doesn't congeal for me. There has to be something more to it.
Well, see now this is the difficult part because I have to dismantle some things here, in order for you to properly see where I'm coming from. Since I pretty much reject that entire perspective (about us needing to accept Jesus in order to be "saved", going straight to heaven because we did so, etc. etc. Well what about the bad people that were good at the last minute, that's not fair, etc..)
I don't have that perspective. I don't believe Jesus died FOR our sins. I believe Jesus died BECAUSE of ous sins. Meaning, we were being shown just what non-love does... and what love does (Father forgive them.... they know not what they do.) I do NOT believe Jesus was God's whipping boy, and that we have to say some prayer or "invite Jesus into our heart" or "believe" and we are "saved." I don't think that is what it is about. I think for the most part, people have really twisted and confused what Jesus came to teach.
Quote:
I'm not familiar with "refining fire". Would explain this to me?
Ahh, this might help to clear things up! Ok, refining fire. Basically, I believe in the idea that ALL human beings are being refined. In THIS life, and when we pass over. I call it fire because of it's intensity. I believe that in all areas of our life, the thoughts and actions that we have that are non-loving, if we are not repentant of now, we will be later. I think when confronted with the most powerful thing there is: (LOVE) I think this is when we go through this refining fire. This repentance is a sincere REMORSE. It may sound simple enough, but if you've ever felt true and intense regret and remorse, you will understand the term "fire". You will also understand just how much you can grow and learn.
Now, you talk about the "best of the best christians and worst of the worst christians". or "well, bad people repenting at the last minute and they get to go to heaven" (I'm paraphrasing but this is a general idea I've heard so often.) We do not know what is in another person's heart. We are ALL going to go through the refining fire. WE are all SO different. WE need HEALING, and we need REFINING. It is TRULY none of our business how much HEALING or REFINING another needs. That is for God, alone. Some of the worst among us may need the most healing. Some of the best among us may need the most refining. We do not know. But we will all go through what we need. God is LOVE. His justice is rooted in LOVE.
He will sit as a refiner of silver. This is an excerpt from a pretty good little story that I've always liked. (Author Unknown) :
As she watched the silversmith, he held a piece of silver over the fire and let it heat up. He explained that, in refining silver, one needed to hold the silver in the middle of the fire where the flames were hottest so as to burn away all the impurities.
The woman thought about God holding us in such a hot spot - then she thought again about the verse, that He sits as a refiner and purifier of silver. She asked the silversmith if it was true that he had to sit there in front of the fire the whole time the silver was being refined. The man answered that yes, he not only had to sit there holding the silver, but he had to keep his eyes on the silver the entire time it was in the fire. For if the silver was left even a moment too long in the flames, it would be destroyed. The woman was silent for a moment. Then she asked the silversmith, "How do you know when the silver is fully refined?" He smiled at her and answered, "Oh, that's the easy part -- when I see my image reflected in it."
I believe that as we live our lives and struggle to understand things, and struggle with light and dark, love and non-love... our lives are creating something. And I believe that we are all in this together.
I believe that God WILL sit as a refiner of silver. We feel it now (through our conscience, and in our heart) and we will feel it when we pass on and are going through healing and refining. We WILL feel the non-love that we wrapped around others. THIS IS the fire. imho. However, it is only for our own good.
We are in a process. Again, we are in this together. Even though, a lot of times, it doesn't seem that way.
Jesus gave only two commands.
And they both centered on LOVE.
It's not about mansions in the sky, or "saying a prayer", or belonging to the right religious club. It's about growing and maturing in love.
Quote:
Ok. I understand this. I think this is going to be our disagreeing point. I can't wrap my mind around this one lifetime being enough for us
to reach the level that, I believe, God wants us to reach. It is all in how we
interpret what God wants us to be and what is the price of perfect, everlasting
life. I think the price is a lot higher than we can pay in this one lifetime.
See above. Again, it's not about "paying" for everlasting life. (in my view.)
Quote:
How would this work? Only one woman?
Carnal/Spiritual.
The two women in the field... It's talking about the same woman.
We have dual natures. Light and dark.
Our OLD natures are being left behind.
This is good news.
Well, thanks for letting me share my views. Again, this is just my perspective. I am not trying to change anyone's views or say my views are right. I know you understand that because you have expressed the same sentiment and it is one that I truly appreciate.
He will sit as a refiner of silver. This is an excerpt from a pretty good little story that I've always liked. (Author Unknown)
As she watched the silversmith, he held a piece of silver over the fire and let it heat up. He explained that, in refining silver, one needed to hold the silver in the middle of the fire where the flames were hottest so as to burn away all the impurities.
The woman thought about God holding us in such a hot spot - then she thought again about the verse, that He sits as a refiner and purifier of silver. She asked the silversmith if it was true that he had to sit there in front of the fire the whole time the silver was being refined. The man answered that yes, he not only had to sit there holding the silver, but he had to keep his eyes on the silver the entire time it was in the fire. For if the silver was left even a moment too long in the flames, it would be destroyed. The woman was silent for a moment. Then she asked the silversmith, "How do you know when the silver is fully refined?" He smiled at her and answered, "Oh, that's the easy part -- when I see my image reflected in it."
The "Lake of Fire" is a sea of glass.
For now we see through a glass, darkly, but then face to face.
Now I know in part, but then shall I know even as also I am known.
First, I want to thank you for this, Sparrow. This is amazing. I am interested in hearing more. Over all, my beliefs are like yours, mostly. Where you are using the refining fire, I am using continuous life. My ideas about humans needing to be refined are just like yours. We just differ in the terminology we are using about how God is accomplishing that step. Our ideas are pretty much the same, I think. I really want to explore your ideas more. Some of my "beliefs" are not set in stone (some are ), like this about the continuous life. I am always looking to "refine" my own conclusions. Like I say, it is all like a big jigsaw puzzle without a picture on the box and I am trying to put it together one tiny piece at a time. So, I welcome your thoughts, insights, ideas - whether I ultimately accept them or not. I think you definitely have some puzzle pieces that I need.
I've got to run now, but I will get back to this post as soon as I can. I also have to do some reading.
Quote:
Originally Posted by .sparrow.
Well, see now this is the difficult part because I have to dismantle some things here, in order for you to properly see where I'm coming from. Since I pretty much reject that entire perspective (about us needing to accept Jesus in order to be "saved", going straight to heaven because we did so, etc. etc. Well what about the bad people that were good at the last minute, that's not fair, etc..)
I don't have that perspective. I don't believe Jesus died FOR our sins. I believe Jesus died BECAUSE of ous sins. Meaning, we were being shown just what non-love does... and what love does (Father forgive them.... they know not what they do.) I do NOT believe Jesus was God's whipping boy, and that we have to say some prayer or "invite Jesus into our heart" or "believe" and we are "saved." I don't think that is what it is about. I think for the most part, people have really twisted and confused what Jesus came to teach.
Ahh, this might help to clear things up! Ok, refining fire. Basically, I believe in the idea that ALL human beings are being refined. In THIS life, and when we pass over. I call it fire because of it's intensity. I believe that in all areas of our life, the thoughts and actions that we have that are non-loving, if we are not repentant of now, we will be later. I think when confronted with the most powerful thing there is: (LOVE) I think this is when we go through this refining fire. This repentance is a sincere REMORSE. It may sound simple enough, but if you've ever felt true and intense regret and remorse, you will understand the term "fire". You will also understand just how much you can grow and learn.
Now, you talk about the "best of the best christians and worst of the worst christians". or "well, bad people repenting at the last minute and they get to go to heaven" (I'm paraphrasing but this is a general idea I've heard so often.) We do not know what is in another person's heart. We are ALL going to go through the refining fire. WE are all SO different. WE need HEALING, and we need REFINING. It is TRULY none of our business how much HEALING or REFINING another needs. That is for God, alone. Some of the worst among us may need the most healing. Some of the best among us may need the most refining. We do not know. But we will all go through what we need. God is LOVE. His justice is rooted in LOVE.
He will sit as a refiner of silver. This is an excerpt from a pretty good little story that I've always liked. (Author Unknown) :
As she watched the silversmith, he held a piece of silver over the fire and let it heat up. He explained that, in refining silver, one needed to hold the silver in the middle of the fire where the flames were hottest so as to burn away all the impurities.
The woman thought about God holding us in such a hot spot - then she thought again about the verse, that He sits as a refiner and purifier of silver. She asked the silversmith if it was true that he had to sit there in front of the fire the whole time the silver was being refined. The man answered that yes, he not only had to sit there holding the silver, but he had to keep his eyes on the silver the entire time it was in the fire. For if the silver was left even a moment too long in the flames, it would be destroyed. The woman was silent for a moment. Then she asked the silversmith, "How do you know when the silver is fully refined?" He smiled at her and answered, "Oh, that's the easy part -- when I see my image reflected in it."
I believe that as we live our lives and struggle to understand things, and struggle with light and dark, love and non-love... our lives are creating something. And I believe that we are all in this together.
I believe that God WILL sit as a refiner of silver. We feel it now (through our conscience, and in our heart) and we will feel it when we pass on and are going through healing and refining. We WILL feel the non-love that we wrapped around others. THIS IS the fire. imho. However, it is only for our own good.
We are in a process. Again, we are in this together. Even though, a lot of times, it doesn't seem that way.
Jesus gave only two commands.
And they both centered on LOVE.
It's not about mansions in the sky, or "saying a prayer", or belonging to the right religious club. It's about growing and maturing in love.
See above. Again, it's not about "paying" for everlasting life. (in my view.)
Carnal/Spiritual.
The two women in the field... It's talking about the same woman.
We have dual natures. Light and dark.
Our OLD natures are being left behind.
This is good news.
Well, thanks for letting me share my views. Again, this is just my perspective. I am not trying to change anyone's views or say my views are right. I know you understand that because you have expressed the same sentiment and it is one that I truly appreciate.
Peace friend,
sparrow
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At first, I was only trying to understand your perspective so that I can read your posts more through your eyes, but now you've given some more good food for thought that I'd like to comment on. 
