Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
^ And yet no one is claiming that homosexuality is "good for society" you are making things up. Again. As usual. Nothing new there.
No what we are saying is that homosexuality is no better or worse for society than heterosexuality, and that all your attempts to call it "immoral" have failed because other than "god says so" you have failed to provide even ONE argument against it.
I do not understand how one places the bible ABOVE the teaching of Christ.
Precisely. Some posters here, the closed-minded fundie variety who have the weakest, most shallow and brittle kind of faith possible, remind me of the Pharisees that Jesus railed against, worrying about "the letter of the law" while ignoring the spirit of it completely.
These people would rather ignore Jesus' injunctions to not judge others, to forgive, to love, to not be hypocrites, and instead pick apart the words of Paul (again, who cares what Paul said about anything? Why are his words on equal footing with those of Jesus? Some theologian once said many Christians these days should be more rightly called "Paulists" and I think that is right on) or some OT verse to try to find justification for their views--they only care about the parts of the Bible that justify their hypocrisy and bigotry. They don't experience "the spirit" and more--they couldn't care less about it--they just want to brain people over the head with The Bible endlessly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
I'll take the teachings of Paul over your disgusting foul posts any day.
And twice on Sunday
That's super for you. But as usual you didn't answer the question.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
This tired argument again? It fails every time, but yet you keep clinging to that fallacy.
You fail every time. Perhaps you lack reading comprehension skills, but there is not an injunction against homosexuality there. Do you see one?
Even if you care to read it that way (to support your hypocrisy and bigotry--and thank you for putting those qualities of yours on glaring display again for all to see, thus proving the point)--the same passage speaks about adultery and other things which you never, never ever mention and seem to have no trouble with or, if you do, you are silent on those topics while railing forever against those nasty homosexuals. You probably won't see it, but this is just one of the ways we all can tell what a hypocrite you are.
Quote:
There are plenty of verses in the NT that condemn homosexuality. Plus God said that this particular sinful act destroyed other nations in the OT so that falls outside the realm of Mosaic laws.
First off, there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to make the baseless, ridiculous claim that of all the thousands of gods imagined by humans, only Yahweh--patron deity of some sects of ancient Hebrews--actually exists and that all others are "just made up and not real." That is nonsense.
Beyond that there is no evidence whatsoever, of any kind, outside The Bible (which doesn't count as evidence) that Yahweh or any other god ever said anything to anyone.
The other NT verses you mention can only be the words of Paul, by your interpretation. In other words, immaterial to the discussion.
Besides which, the laws of this nation are not based on The Bible or any other holy book, nor should they be. What some believers of a certain faith might feel their particular deity doesn't like is totally irrelevant. It doesn't matter and nobody should care.
Quote:
The last gasp of a dying argument. Trying to shame me with terms like bigot.
it's not a "dying argument." Rather the idea that we should live under the Christian version of sharia law and that certain groups of people should be ostracized, treated as second class citizens, or denied rights, or that we need to "take a stand" against them (from the title of the thread, no less) is what is dying away, sorry to inform you.
And again, the type of hate-and fear-filled, fake "Christian" you align yourself with HAS to pretend they are suffering persecution. But when I call you a bigot or a hypocrite, it is not based on the fact you claim to be a Christian, but because of the very things you say here, over and over. Things that are inarguably, plainly bigoted and hypocritical. I schooled you on this before, but if I say something like "Asians are terrible drivers" and someone says "You're racist" that is not an insult, nor is it invalid. It is instead a perfectly apt description based on what I said. I am sorry you don't get this. If you don't want to be called out for being a hypocritical bigot, you should cease saying things that are bigoted and hypocritical. Simple. But I know how you like to whine about how you are being mistreated and people are mean to you and call you names, etc., etc. Go tell your mommy about it. Better yet, just man up for once.
Quote:
I am a bigot against sin. Not people.
I call BS. Because that is pure BS. It is so obvious you think homosexuals are just yucky and disgusting. You simply try (and fail) to use your religion as a shield, or justification for condemning them and endorsing the idea they do not deserve the same rights as others. Hypocrisy and bigotry, plain and simple, clearly on display.
Quote:
Sexual immorality is a sin, and a particularly damaging one.
And yet the ONLY sexual immorality (and what that may consist of, of course, is completely subjective and opinion-based) you EVER bring up is homosexuality. Very telling, and very hypocritical.
Quote:
All you are doing is spreading a secular lie that homosexuality is good for society.
I've never said this, and I haven't seen anyone else say this, or anything like it. Homosexuality simply is. Just as heterosexuality is. Neither are "good or bad" in and of themselves, but either can turn that way if a person's sexual drive (regardless of orientation) causes them to exploit or mistreat another, or perhaps if sex (regardless of orientation) is the only thing they value in life, etc.
Quote:
It's not.
And yet neither you nor anyone else has ever been able to support this claim in any kind of valid way. It's always some line of BS like "homosexuals are pedophiles!" or "homosexuals are all promiscuous!" or "gay people are nothing but disease-spreaders!" and on and on. OR you refer to your personal interpretation of the Bible. Not relevant, not an argument.
Quote:
And yet look who is being extremely rude, offensive and insulting. Doesn't say much for your character.
Yes jeff, you are the benchmark of human character. We should all take a page from your book. The world would be a better place with even more hypocritical bigots in it.
And again, I never insulted you. and please show me where I was rude or off the mark.
Quote:
I guess if all else fails, just make up lies about someone you don't even know, right? Disgusting.
Never lied about you OR insulted you. I merely made 100% objectively accurate and valid comments based on your very own posts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo
No what we are saying is that homosexuality is no better or worse for society than heterosexuality, and that all your attempts to call it "immoral" have failed because other than "god says so" you have failed to provide even ONE argument against it.
There is absolutely no reason--not one single reason--to condemn or be disgusted by homosexuality that isn't based on fear, hate, ignorance, bigotry, or some combination thereof. Not one.
Precisely. Some posters here, the closed-minded fundie variety who have the weakest, most shallow and brittle kind of faith possible, remind me of the Pharisees that Jesus railed against, worrying about "the letter of the law" while ignoring the spirit of it completely.
Jesus also railed quite a bit against sin.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Griffis
These people would rather ignore Jesus' injunctions to not judge others, to forgive, to love, to not be hypocrites, and instead pick apart the words of Paul (again, who cares what Paul said about anything? Why are his words on equal footing with those of Jesus? Some theologian once said many Christians these days should be more rightly called "Paulists" and I think that is right on) or some OT verse to try to find justification for their views--they only care about the parts of the Bible that justify their hypocrisy and bigotry. They don't experience "the spirit" and more--they couldn't care less about it--they just want to brain people over the head with The Bible endlessly.
Who cares about Paul? Well great job, you just reduced God's Holy Word to the level of a Joel Osteen book. Paul's words are divine revelation from God. Christ's charge of hypocrites have everything to do with their heart and not their actions. The Pharisees were acting right in their physical actions, but their hearts were bad. Likewise, we are not to judge with the spirit that we are better than someone else. Calling us hypocrites only because we speak out against sin is wrong and ignorant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Griffis
You fail every time. Perhaps you lack reading comprehension skills, but there is not an injunction against homosexuality there. Do you see one?
Yea blah blah blah, I'm the most ignorant person in the world, I fail at everything, I am never right, I can't read. Typical lame belittling tactics which only makes YOU look bad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Griffis
Even if you care to read it that way (to support your hypocrisy and bigotry--and thank you for putting those qualities of yours on glaring display again for all to see, thus proving the point)--the same passage speaks about adultery and other things which you never, never ever mention and seem to have no trouble with or, if you do, you are silent on those topics while railing forever against those nasty homosexuals. You probably won't see it, but this is just one of the ways we all can tell what a hypocrite you are.
I am against all forms of sexual immorality including adultry and incest. Did you need more than that? It's YOUR camp that keeps making homosexuality the front and center issue like with this Catholic school. Why can't the LGBT community leave Christians alone?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Griffis
First off, there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to make the baseless, ridiculous claim that of all the thousands of gods imagined by humans, only Yahweh--patron deity of some sects of ancient Hebrews--actually exists and that all others are "just made up and not real." That is nonsense.
I'm confused, are you atheist or Christian? Because if you are atheist then you have no right to tell me what parts of the Bible I should accept. And there are plenty of reasons to believe that the God of the Bible is the one true god. Zero reasons to accept secular ideology.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Griffis
Beyond that there is no evidence whatsoever, of any kind, outside The Bible (which doesn't count as evidence) that Yahweh or any other god ever said anything to anyone.
Ignorant statement. There are numerous extra-biblical sources that align with the Bible stories and then you have archaeology to back it up even further.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Griffis
The other NT verses you mention can only be the words of Paul, by your interpretation. In other words, immaterial to the discussion.
The Words of Paul are from the Words of God so your point fails miserably.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Griffis
Besides which, the laws of this nation are not based on The Bible or any other holy book, nor should they be. What some believers of a certain faith might feel their particular deity doesn't like is totally irrelevant. It doesn't matter and nobody should care.
Wrong again. Many US laws are rooted in Christian ideology. Educate yourself.
it's not a "dying argument." Rather the idea that we should live under the Christian version of sharia law and that certain groups of people should be ostracized, treated as second class citizens, or denied rights, or that we need to "take a stand" against them (from the title of the thread, no less) is what is dying away, sorry to inform you.
I don't believe anyone should be treated as 2nd class. But I also believe in religious freedom. Sexual orientation does not classify people. It's a false man made concept especially since someone can simply change their "sexual orientation" at a whim. You can't do that with race.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Griffis
And again, the type of hate-and fear-filled, fake "Christian" you align yourself with HAS to pretend they are suffering persecution. But when I call you a bigot or a hypocrite, it is not based on the fact you claim to be a Christian, but because of the very things you say here, over and over. Things that are inarguably, plainly bigoted and hypocritical. I schooled you on this before, but if I say something like "Asians are terrible drivers" and someone says "You're racist" that is not an insult, nor is it invalid. It is instead a perfectly apt description based on what I said. I am sorry you don't get this. If you don't want to be called out for being a hypocritical bigot, you should cease saying things that are bigoted and hypocritical. Simple. But I know how you like to whine about how you are being mistreated and people are mean to you and call you names, etc., etc. Go tell your mommy about it. Better yet, just man up for once.
Why don't you MAN up and at least have the decency to admit that you are being excessively rude, foul, and insulting. You insulted my faith and then said I completely lack love which since you don't know me personally, then that is a baseless lie.
I don't have the time or energy to respond to the rest of your garbage.
Who cares about Paul? Well great job, you just reduced God's Holy Word to the level of a Joel Osteen book. Paul's words are divine revelation from God. Christ's charge of hypocrites have everything to do with their heart and not their actions. The Pharisees were acting right in their physical actions, but their hearts were bad. Likewise, we are not to judge with the spirit that we are better than someone else. Calling us hypocrites only because we speak out against sin is wrong and ignorant.
Yea blah blah blah, I'm the most ignorant person in the world, I fail at everything, I am never right, I can't read. Typical lame belittling tactics which only makes YOU look bad.
I am against all forms of sexual immorality including adultry and incest. Did you need more than that? It's YOUR camp that keeps making homosexuality the front and center issue like with this Catholic school. Why can't the LGBT community leave Christians alone?
I'm confused, are you atheist or Christian? Because if you are atheist then you have no right to tell me what parts of the Bible I should accept. And there are plenty of reasons to believe that the God of the Bible is the one true god. Zero reasons to accept secular ideology.
Ignorant statement. There are numerous extra-biblical sources that align with the Bible stories and then you have archaeology to back it up even further.
The Words of Paul are from the Words of God so your point fails miserably.
I don't believe anyone should be treated as 2nd class. But I also believe in religious freedom. Sexual orientation does not classify people. It's a false man made concept especially since someone can simply change their "sexual orientation" at a whim. You can't do that with race.
Why don't you MAN up and at least have the decency to admit that you are being excessively rude, foul, and insulting. You insulted my faith and then said I completely lack love which since you don't know me personally, then that is a baseless lie.
I don't have the time or energy to respond to the rest of your garbage.
Quite a witness are you, jeff?
Laws have been made according to Christian ideology, but thank God we are getting away from that ugly crap at last. Because it is ideology that has arisen contrary to Jesus, contrary to a REAL understanding of Scripture, and contrary to the NEW commandment Jesus gave us to love our neighbor as ourselves.
What you are, jeff, is part of a cult that uses God to justify your bigotry. And yes you HAVE railed against homosexuals, referring to their gay pride parades as flaunting who they are.
Moderator cut: deleted may mistake yourself for revealing Christ, but what you've done--with the above response---is drive people to decide that Christianity is a moral abyss. THAT, is your witness.
Your religious freedom ends when it steps on someone else's civil rights. You've been told this at least a hundred times. You aren't exercising your religious freedom if it involves denying other people their civil rights. Go to Iran if you want to favor religious freedom over civil liberty.
Moderator cut: deletedwhen you say others shouldn't be treated as 2nd class citizens. You railed against the SCOTUS ruling for gay marriage--wanting homosexuals to be LESS than you in terms of individual, personal fulfillment in life.
You are the one who is constantly rude, foul, and insulting--all in the name of God. You also demand privileges you would not give to anyone else---the right to deny cakes and pizza to homosexuals.
What you need is a decent biblical education from a respected theological seminary---no not Moody Bible Institute or the like, but Yale or Harvard or Princeton, even Fordham U., or Fuller Theological Seminary. Once you get that, you will know Moderator cut: deleted you make yourself appear as over and over.
Last edited by june 7th; 09-22-2016 at 06:24 PM..
Reason: Rude, insulting, or attacking statements are deleted.
Then, love your neighbor, unconditionally.
And you might just learn something.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
I don't see it where it says love your neighbor by embracing their sin.
Why is homosexuality a sin, Jeff? Is it the kinds of sex that you imagine might be going on within a gay relationship? Do you also imagine the kinds of sex that might be going on within heterosexual relationships of those that you know, i.e. church members, your minister, etc.?
By the way, I'm looking forward to your response to my post #138 that was directed specifically at you.
Just like your HELL is NOT my hell...YOUR "SIN" is NOT my "sin."
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
Judging involves condemning. I don't condemn people. I will speak the truth that such and such behavior is sinful. That's not judging.
The bolded: Are you referring to the imagined sex between gay people that is considered sinful behavior, Jeff? If so, you DO know, do you not, that homosexuals do nothing sexually that heterosexuals don't do?
How come you don't imagine the 'sinful sex' between heterosexuals?
Just so we can be absolutely non-discriminate about this, how about this for a suggestion, Jeff: Church members fill out an 'honesty affidavit' in the church foyer that asks whether or not they've had any 'sinful sex' during the past week? This would mean, of course, that this 'honesty affidavit' outlines what 'sinful sex' is perceived to be. Perhaps you could come up with the wording of this affidavit . . .?
Does this sound like a good idea, Jeff, or am I being just as silly as you are?
Yes, but never stated the simple fact of being homosexual or engaging in homosexuality was a sin. If you feel it is, fine. That's on you. You'd think if you had a problem with sex out of wedlock, you'd endorse SSM.
It's not as if anyone else's sexual activities are your business, nor do they affect you.
Why do you obsess on this one issue and disregard Jesus' teaching to love, forgive and not judge others? Why the emphasis on what you consider negative and not the positive? Serious question.
Quote:
Paul's words are divine revelation from God.
If you feel that, fine. Just realize it's merely your opinion.
Quote:
Why can't the LGBT community leave Christians alone?
That is unhinged. Leave the church alone to discriminate? Neither the LGBT community or any other thinking, feeling person should sit by for that. You might as well have asked "Why can't the church be left alone to enact their systematic bigotry against entire groups of people?"
Quote:
I'm confused, are you atheist or Christian? Because if you are atheist then you have no right to tell me what parts of the Bible I should accept.
I am a seeker of knowledge and wisdom. I love The Bible and think of it as one of the most majestic and profound collections of thought, stories and writing ever produced by the human heart and mind. Much knowledge and wisdom therein, in my humble estimation.
I just happen to doubt the existence of gods--any gods--as depicted or imagined by any culture. I'd have to call myself agnostic. But I can't say with certainty gods absolutely do not exist. That's beyond human knowledge.
Quote:
And there are plenty of reasons to believe that the God of the Bible is the one true god.
Really, there aren't. A whole lot of people believe this, but that don't make it so.
Quote:
Zero reasons to accept secular ideology.
There is no unified secular ideology. Aside from not typically beliving in deities.
Quote:
Ignorant statement. There are numerous extra-biblical sources that align with the Bible stories
Really, there aren't. There are some historians who mention early Christians. That's about it.
Quote:
...and then you have archaeology to back it up even further.
I am fascinated by archaeology, and biblical archaeology as well. Undoubtedly there is some real history in The Bible, and some archaeological finds have borne this out. But none of these things offer proof of any god. Not Yahweh or any others. Some finds have proven the existence of certain people, places and events recounted in The Bible however...that is true. But no evidence of god(s).
Quote:
Wrong again. Many US laws are rooted in Christian ideology. Educate yourself.
Meh. Most laws people ascribe to the Bible pre-date the Bible. Even many things Jesus allegedly said are neither unique to or original to the NT, not that I feel that detracts from The Bible.
As far as what can be said to come from biblical law, pretty much only two things: don't steal and don't kill.
Quote:
I don't believe anyone should be treated as 2nd class.
You don't seem to take issue with it when it comes to gay people. In fact, you seem to embrace the idea.
Quote:
But I also believe in religious freedom.
As do I, very deeply. But to me, that stops when it impinges on the rights, freedoms and equal treatment of others.
Last edited by mensaguy; 09-24-2016 at 05:11 AM..
Reason: fixed quote
The bolded: Are you referring to the imagined sex between gay people that is considered sinful behavior, Jeff? If so, you DO know, do you not, that homosexuals do nothing sexually that heterosexuals don't do?
Maybe you need a course in human anatomy because man and female sexual relations are not the exactly same as same sex relations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RomulusXXV
How come you don't imagine the 'sinful sex' between heterosexuals?
Just so we can be absolutely non-discriminate about this, how about this for a suggestion, Jeff: Church members fill out an 'honesty affidavit' in the church foyer that asks whether or not they've had any 'sinful sex' during the past week? This would mean, of course, that this 'honesty affidavit' outlines what 'sinful sex' is perceived to be. Perhaps you could come up with the wording of this affidavit . . .?
Does this sound like a good idea, Jeff, or am I being just as silly as you are?
Here we go again with the false implications that just because I don't buy into the secular lie and support homosexuality than that means I'm gay. Seriously, is that all you can bring to the table?
The bolded: Are you referring to the imagined sex between gay people that is considered sinful behavior, Jeff? If so, you DO know, do you not, that homosexuals do nothing sexually that heterosexuals don't do?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
Maybe you need a course in human anatomy because man and female sexual relations are not the exactly same as same sex relations.
Forget about human anatomy and its 'natural use'. I said that homosexuals do nothing sexually that heterosexuals don't do, whether it's 'unnatural' or not. Do you require a more graphic description or could you perhaps just apply what you imagine gay people doing sexually to straight people?
Quote:
Originally Posted by RomulusXXV
How come you don't imagine the 'sinful sex' between heterosexuals?
Just so we can be absolutely non-discriminate about this, how about this for a suggestion, Jeff: Church members fill out an 'honesty affidavit' in the church foyer that asks whether or not they've had any 'sinful sex' during the past week? This would mean, of course, that this 'honesty affidavit' outlines what 'sinful sex' is perceived to be. Perhaps you could come up with the wording of this affidavit . . .?
Does this sound like a good idea, Jeff, or am I being just as silly as you are?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
Here we go again with the false implications that just because I don't buy into the secular lie and support homosexuality than that means I'm gay. Seriously, is that all you can bring to the table?
Huh? Where did I ever imply that you're gay?
What I'm beginning to realize, Jeff, is that you're not understanding my posts at all, hence such responses. And, you clearly have little understanding of your printed deity, the Bible.
Do you not realize that the Bible (your God) does not reference homosexuality as we today define the term in either Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek? It just does not. How can I make that any easier for you to to understand?
Do you not realize that Paul was not God and that his epistles appeared in the Bible merely because they were chosen - by human beings - to be included? It was the luck of the draw ...other texts by other authors were excluded. What if THEY had appeared in the Bible? Would you be referring to them as 'the inspired word of God'? Therefore Paul's letters are no more - or perhaps no less - 'God-inspired' than this post to you. Can I make that any simpler?
How come you haven't caught on by now, Jeff, that one's sexuality is 'a given' and not a choice? The manner in which you speak of gay people is that they are somehow feigning their sexuality for no other reason than to make Christian heads spin. Homosexuals ARE NOT in league with a fictitious Satan. Nor are they filled with fictitious demons. Until you do realize this, how can you even consider discussing this topic?
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
stop being so logical! haha
