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Perfect nothing ... much of what you've stated is not from the Spirit of Truth.
"with Godallthingsarepossible.” ~ words of Jesus
Despite what is a hollow gotcha:
God died on the cross. Why? "with Godallthingsarepossible."
God sacrificed everything Why? "with Godallthingsarepossible."
"Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.” ~ Jesus
"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."
God NEVER required blood sacrifices. Ignorant barbaric savages out of fear of God tried to appease Him with them. How on earth any intelligent and rational 20th-century intellect could possibly believe such barbaric nonsense is beyond me. That anyone could possibly think a God who IS love could ever want or need blood sacrifices for ANY reason strains the concepts of sanity and rationality. For a Christian to ignore that Jesus said God wanted mercy and never wanted sacrifices is to miss the whole message of Christ. The corrupt blood sacrifice narrative born of the OT ignorance and barbaric beliefs about God is an abomination to the very essence of Christ's message of love and demonstration of God's love through scourging and crucifixion. Those who worship a wrathful God who NEEDED blood sacrifices to appease Him do not know God or Jesus, period.
You don't know what you're talking about. And you are implying that the writer of Hebrews didn't know God, or Jesus who Himself is God, which is something you deny.
The Levitical sacrifices were instituted by God Himself who spoke to Moses and gave detailed instructions on how the sacrifices were to be carried out. The book of Leviticus gives the details. The animal sacrifices were pictures or types of the future sacrifice that Jesus would make.
The writer of Hebrews states the following in Hebrews 10:5-7.
Heb. 10:5 Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says, "SACRIFICE AND OFFERING YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED, BUT A BODY YOU HAVE PREPARED FOR ME; 6] IN WHOLE BURNT OFFERINGS AND sacrifices FOR SIN YOU HAVE TAKEN NO PLEASURE. 7] "THEN I SAID, 'BEHOLD, I HAVE COME (IN THE SCROLL OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN OF ME) TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD.'" [caps are the NASB's]
He was quoting the Septuagint translation of what in the Hebrew Bible is Psalm 40, but in the Septuagint it is Psalm 39.
6 Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not; but a body hast thou prepared me: whole-burnt-offering and [sacrifice] for sin thou didst not require. 7 Then I said, Behold, I come: in the volume of the book it is written concerning me, 8 I desired to do thy will, O my God, and thy law in the midst of mine heart.
Yes, that's from the Old Testament which you refer to as ''OT ignorance and barbaric beliefs about God.''
However, the writer of Hebrews has more to say on the matter. Prior to what he just wrote in Hebrews 10:5-7 he had stated in Hebrews 9:26 that Jesus had been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself, and that Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many [Hebrews 9:28].
Hebrews chapters 9 and 10 bring out the fact that the Levitical animal sacrifices pointed to the future sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. The very sacrifice to which Jesus Himself referred when He said the following,
Matthew 20:28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for (ἀντὶ-anti) many."
The word ἀντὶ by the way, translated as 'for' means 'in place of' or 'instead of' and refers to substitution.
You like to claim that people who don't agree with your opinions don't know God; don't know Jesus. The New Testament writers knew God. They knew Jesus. That includes the writer of Hebrews. You on the other hand do not.
Last edited by Michael Way; 03-13-2017 at 09:51 PM..
It just keeps coming back to this over and over again.
God is love, BUT...
If anyone could give a reason why LOVE would require a human or animal blood sacrifice, that might be something worth discussing. But you can't. It's always, "God is love, BUT... the bible says this or that which stands in opposition to the idea that God is love."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo
Jimmie, here are some words attributed to Jesus:
“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."
The "heavenly Father" [God] loves his "enemies". Nothing about requiring a blood sacrifice in order to be able to love. Also Jesus declared people forgiven without requiring them to offer God a blood sacrifice, or believe he was a sacrifice. Do you believe those people were forgiven?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo
None of which answers the question, jimmie. You're just regurgitating some bible verses that are in contradiction to the statement that God is love, and that love keeps no record of wrongs and Jesus declaring people forgiven without any blood sacrifice. Believe me, I understand that there is no reconciling it, and therefore it is necessary "give more weight" to either the idea of blood sacrifice being necessary, OR to the idea that God is love. You choose the former, I choose the latter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo
I think you are choosing to ignore the point, so I don't think there's much to be gained from continuing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo
As long as you remain under the illusion that the justice of God has anything to do with an eye for an eye or a life for a life, you will continue to think God being holy means that God is unapproachable apart from a blood sacrifice, and you will never understand that "God is love" is incompatible with such a concept.
A valiant effort, Pleroo. But some people need their pound of flesh.
How can a merciful God demand human sacrifice? He wouldn't!
And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD: "If you give the Ammonites into my hands, whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the LORD's, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering.
Then Jephthah went over to fight the Ammonites, and the LORD gave them into his hands. He devastated twenty towns from Aroer to the vicinity of Minnith, as far as Abel Keramim. Thus Israel subdued Ammon.
When Jephthah returned to his home in Mizpah, who should come out to meet him but his daughter, dancing to the sound of tambourines! She was an only child. Except for her he had neither son nor daughter. When he saw her, he tore his clothes and cried, "Oh! My daughter! You have made me miserable and wretched, because I have made a vow to the LORD that I cannot break."
"My father," she replied, "you have given your word to the LORD. Do to me just as you promised, now that the LORD has avenged you of your enemies, the Ammonites. But grant me this one request," she said. "Give me two months to roam the hills and weep with my friends, because I will never marry."
"You may go," he said. And he let her go for two months. She and the girls went into the hills and wept because she would never marry. After the two months, she returned to her father, and he did to her as he had vowed.
No father in his right-mind would put to death his only daughter (son), nor would God require it.
And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD: "If you give the Ammonites into my hands, whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the LORD's, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering.
Then Jephthah went over to fight the Ammonites, and the LORD gave them into his hands. He devastated twenty towns from Aroer to the vicinity of Minnith, as far as Abel Keramim. Thus Israel subdued Ammon.
When Jephthah returned to his home in Mizpah, who should come out to meet him but his daughter, dancing to the sound of tambourines! She was an only child. Except for her he had neither son nor daughter. When he saw her, he tore his clothes and cried, "Oh! My daughter! You have made me miserable and wretched, because I have made a vow to the LORD that I cannot break."
"My father," she replied, "you have given your word to the LORD. Do to me just as you promised, now that the LORD has avenged you of your enemies, the Ammonites. But grant me this one request," she said. "Give me two months to roam the hills and weep with my friends, because I will never marry."
"You may go," he said. And he let her go for two months. She and the girls went into the hills and wept because she would never marry. After the two months, she returned to her father, and he did to her as he had vowed.
No father in his right-mind would put to death his only daughter (son), nor would God require it.
Jerwade, that isn't God demanding a human sacrifice---that is a fool making a vow he had no business making. If he hadn't been a fool, he would have found one of his own rams (as God led Abraham to find when Abraham was going to sacrifice Issac) . Some might say keeping the vow was paramount, and in Jewish ancient culture it was--yet from our perspective it certainly appears Jephthah was anything but wise.
God NEVER required blood sacrifices. Ignorant barbaric savages out of fear of God tried to appease Him with them. How on earth any intelligent and rational 20th-century intellect could possibly believe such barbaric nonsense is beyond me. That anyone could possibly think a God who IS love could ever want or need blood sacrifices for ANY reason strains the concepts of sanity and rationality. For a Christian to ignore that Jesus said God wanted mercy and never wanted sacrifices is to miss the whole message of Christ. The corrupt blood sacrifice narrative born of the OT ignorance and barbaric beliefs about God is an abomination to the very essence of Christ's message of love and demonstration of God's love through scourging and crucifixion. Those who worship a wrathful God who NEEDED blood sacrifices to appease Him do not know God or Jesus, period.
God NEVER required blood sacrifices. Ignorant barbaric savages out of fear of God tried to appease Him with them. How on earth any intelligent and rational 20th-century intellect could possibly believe such barbaric nonsense is beyond me. That anyone could possibly think a God who IS love could ever want or need blood sacrifices for ANY reason strains the concepts of sanity and rationality. For a Christian to ignore that Jesus said God wanted mercy and never wanted sacrifices is to miss the whole message of Christ. The corrupt blood sacrifice narrative born of the OT ignorance and barbaric beliefs about God is an abomination to the very essence of Christ's message of love and demonstration of God's love through scourging and crucifixion. Those who worship a wrathful God who NEEDED blood sacrifices to appease Him do not know God or Jesus, period.
Jerwade, that isn't God demanding a human sacrifice---that is a fool making a vow he had no business making. If he hadn't been a fool, he would have found one of his own rams (as God led Abraham to find when Abraham was going to sacrifice Issac) . Some might say keeping the vow was paramount, and in Jewish ancient culture it was--yet from our perspective it certainly appears Jephthah was anything but wise.
@ OP....a better question would be: How can unrighteous man demand that G-d be made in his image? Peace
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. Some might say keeping the vow was paramount, and in Jewish ancient culture it was--yet from our perspective it certainly appears Jephthah was anything but wise.
