Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
No the scriptures can't give life Mike. You misunderstand that scripture. Paul is telling Timothy that the sacred writings leads people to Christ and it is Christ that gives life.
Jesus is in agreement with Paul here
Jn.5:37-40
And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.*And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.*And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life
People think they can find life in the scriptures but as Jesus pointed out the scriptures are a road map that leads to Him who is the life and the giver of life.
I have no problem with those who say the scriptures are the word of God and are inspired by God Mike. However when they equate the bible to = scripture they are in error.
Look at it this way Mike, in the Septuagint bible Jeremiah is 1/7 shorter then the Karaites/Masoretic Text which most bibles are translated from; and the Septuagint Isaiah is 1/8 shorter then the Karaites/Masoretic Text.
So no matter how you want to look at it Mike either the Karaites/Masoretic Text is an addition to scripture or the Septuagint is a subtraction of scripture.
Which one of these is the infallible, inerrant, undefiled word of God?
No, the Torah is a Tree of Life. What does not give life is the application of any of them, WITHOUT the Spirit, which is what He came to fix. So now we have the other extreme from the tares knee jerk reaction in people to the Truth that IS His Spirit, and that is to throw away the scriptures now that they have the Spirit OF the scriptures. Peace
“It is a tree of life to all who grasp it, and whoever holds on to it is happy; its ways are ways of pleasantness, and all it paths are peace. (Proverbs 3:17-18)
I originally posted this on another thread in reply to someone who claimed that ''only Jesus is the Word of God.'' But I had the feeling that person was just going to ignore it, so I deleted the post and started this thread for the benefit of those who can be objective. Which on this forum is not too many.
Some people claim that the phrase the ''Word of God'' is used only of Jesus. This is demonstrably false as will be seen below. The fact that in English the word 'Word' is capitalized when referring to Jesus is irrelevant.
In the original Greek there was no upper case and lower case. It was either all uppercase (majuscule) or lower case (minuscule).
Greek originally was written in majuscule. Later, Greek began to be written in minuscule.
The phase 'W/word of God' has a broader usage than referring to Jesus alone.
If Jesus alone is the Word of God, then why did Paul say that what he taught was the word of God? (1 Thessalonians 2:13).
If Jesus alone is the Word of God, then why in the book of Acts is the Gospel message repeatedly called the word of God? (Acts 4:31; 6:7; 8:14; 11:1; 13:5; 13:46; 17:13).
If Jesus alone is the Word of God, then why did Jesus Himself refer to what He taught as the word of God? He wasn't referring to Himself. He referred to the word of God as 'it.'
And if Jesus alone is the Word of God, then why did John who refers to Jesus as the Word of God also refer to the Revelation which was given to him by Jesus as the word of God? (Revelation 1:2). In Revelation 1:2 John makes a distinction between the word of God and Jesus.
No, the phrase 'W/word of God' does not refer to Jesus alone. In human history the word of God has come to man through various means. Direct communication from God, through angels, through dreams and visions, through prophets, through Jesus who Himself is God incarnate, through the apostles, and through the written word.
While Jesus is the living Word of God, the word of God has historically come in other forms as well.
No, I didn't misunderstand 2 Timothy 3:14. You misunderstood me. I said in quoting 2 Timothy 3:14 that the sacred writings are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
And I asked you about the scriptures giving life and you quoted that scripture as your proof that the scriptures contain life. not going to let you back track on that now.
Claiming that something means exactly what you say it means doesn't get the job done. What you seem unable to grasp is that no matter what changes may crop up in later copies, it has no bearing on the original writings.
So if God wanted to protect the bible as His word then why did He not protect the originals?
Quote:
And again, your quote ''Thus many of their interpretation of the scripture became a part of the scriptures'' appears to be a reference to the Targums rather than the actual Hebrew texts. The Biblical authors are the ones who wrote the original texts. They did not reinterpret themselves in later copies. But the rabbi's had their interpretations of what the Biblical authors wrote and those interpretations became the Targums.
it is not talking about the targums Mike as much as you would like it to be.
read it again.
Quote:
Biblical authors themselves regarded older biblical texts as authoritive, sacred, and worthy of study. Close examination of some biblical documents, especially those composed towards the end of the biblical period but including some from the preexilic era, shows something extraordinary: Priests and prophets and psalmists and scribes composed scripture by recycling scripture, by turning it and turning it to find new truths in it. For many biblical writers, new words from God emerged from intense examination and reordering of the old ones.
Quote:
Now, I already made it quite clear that there were different texts with variant readings in circulation, and stated the ones which are still extant. The different readings came about with the copies of the originals. But the originals themselves were written by the prophets. The issue is whether the variant readings change the meaning.
And with that in mind, you referred to Deuteronomy 8:6 and say that the Dead Sea scrolls use the word 'love' rather than 'fear.' But actually, only one scroll of the DSS has the word 'love.' That scroll is 4QDeutn (that 'n' is suppose to be a superscript, but I can't format it that way on the forum.) The rest of the DSS's containing Deut. 8:6 agree with the Masoretic Text and have the word 'fear.' The Septuagint which is a Greek translation of the Hebrew text also uses the word fear. This suggests that the original word was 'fear' - יִרְאָה - yirah in the Hebrew. But the word 'fear' - φοβος in the Greek has within its range of meaning the idea of 'respect, reverence, awe' and does not contradict the concept of 'love.'
So in Proverbs 1:7 we're told that, ''The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and discipline.''
And in Deut. 6:5 we're told, "You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.
So we are told both to love and to fear (reverence, respect, be in awe of) God. There is no contradiction here.
There is a difference between loving God and fearing God Mike. Jesus did not say fear God with all you mind, heart and strength.
Quote:
Jeremiah once again is referring to the fact that the false prophets were lying (Jer. 5:31), saying 'Peace, peace' but there is no peace. (Jer. 6:14). That is the lie and that is what 'the lying pen of the scribes' refers to. They were denying that God was going to bring judgment on Judah.
And again lying pen of the scribes is something written Mike, how hard is that to understand.
Quote:
Now use your head and think. What Jeremiah records is the fact that despite the warnings of impending divine judgment, those warnings were being denied. The scribes might have written these denials of coming judgment, but Jeremiah tells us of those denials. Jeremiah is not saying that the Bible cannot be trusted. If the lying pen of the scribes had to do with the text of Jeremiah being written then those scribes would have altered what Jeremiah had written and we would not know of Jeremiah's warnings about the impending divine judgment on Judah. I don't know how much more clear this can be made. I suggest that you consult the commentaries and educate yourself on the matter.
How could they alter something that was not yet written? Obviously Jeremiah was writing about things the scribes had already altered.
Quote:
But I suspect you are more interested in winning an argument then in coming to an understanding of the truth.
Your truth does not represent truth Mike.
I noticed you did not touch on where Moses Changed Gods law? Kind of hard to defend an infallible, inerrant, undefiled bible when from the time of Moses till Jesus the Israelite were following a change instituted by Moses that God had not commanded.
No, the Torah is a Tree of Life. What does not give life is the application of any of them, WITHOUT the Spirit, which is what He came to fix. So now we have the other extreme from the tares knee jerk reaction in people to the Truth that IS His Spirit, and that is to throw away the scriptures now that they have the Spirit OF the scriptures. Peace
“It is a tree of life to all who grasp it, and whoever holds on to it is happy; its ways are ways of pleasantness, and all it paths are peace. (Proverbs 3:17-18)
You either simply misunderstand what I have been saying or are being obtuse.
The bible contains scripture, but not everything in the bible is scripture.
And I asked you about the scriptures giving life and you quoted that scripture as your proof that the scriptures contain life. not going to let you back track on that now.
I simply pointed out what the Scriptures had to say about the fact that they can give the wisdom which leads to salvation.
For those interested here are some experts on the Hebrew and Greek and what they have to say about the scriptures.
Gaius (AD175-200) who speaks of the source of corruptions that survive in the early papyri: "The Divine Scriptures these heretics have audaciously corrupted. Laying violent hands upon them, under pretense of correcting them."
*
*
*
One of the most common biblical manuscripts used to make our modern English translations is known today as the Nestle Text. Yet it was Prof. Eberhard Nestle himself who warned us in his Einfhrung in die Textkritik des griechischen Testaments: "Learned men, so called Correctores were, following the church meeting at Nicea 325 AD, selected by the church authorities to scrutinize the sacred texts and rewrite them in order to correct their meaning in accordance with the views which the church had just sanctioned."
*
*
*
One of the oldest copies of the Bible which dates back to the fifth century is the Codex Bezae, of which the Britannica writes: "Codex Bezae… has a text that is very different from other witnesses. Codex Bezae has many distinctive longer and shorter readings and seems almost to be a separate edition. Its 'Acts, for example, is one-tenth longer than usual’". How can we have a Bible that is said to be "almost… a separate edition"?
*
*
*
St. Jerome when he wrote: "They write down not what they find but what they think is the meaning; and while they attempt to rectify the errors of others, they merely expose their own" (Jerome, Epist. lxxi.5).
*
*
Eusebius writes of a number of sects of Christians of his day: "Therefore they have laid their hands boldly upon the Divine Scriptures, alleging that they have corrected them. That I am not speaking falsely of them in this matter, whoever wishes may learn. For if any one will collect their respective copies, and compare them one with another, he will find that they differ greatly. Those of Asclepiades, for example, do not agree with those of Theodotus. And many of these can be obtained, because their disciples have assiduously written the corrections, as they call them, that is the corruptions, of each of them. Again, those of Hermophilus do not agree with these, and those of Apollonides are not consistent with themselves. For you can compare those prepared by them at an earlier date with those which they corrupted later, and you will find them widely different. But how daring this offense is, it is not likely that they themselves are ignorant. For either they do not believe that the Divine Scriptures were spoken by the Holy Spirit, and thus are unbelievers, or else they think themselves wiser than the Holy Spirit, and in that case what else are they than demoniacs? For they cannot deny the commission of the crime, since the copies have been written by their own hands. For they did not receive such Scriptures from their instructors, nor can they produce any copies from which they were transcribed".
Corruption within the NIV.
*
1 Pet 2:11-20
Original Text
"Dear friends, I urge you, as aliens and strangers in the world, to abstain from sinful desires, which war against your soul. Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us. For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men. Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God. For it is commendable if a man bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because he is conscious of God. But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God."
(NIV)
*
*
"Dear friends, I urge you, as aliens and strangers in the world, to abstain from sinful desires, which war against your soul. Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us. Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men. Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God. Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king. Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh. For it is commendable if a man bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because he is conscious of God. But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God.
(NIV)
*
Verses 13-14 and 17-18, which instruct the reader to submit themselves to the ordinances of man and honor the kings and governors was put there to exert political and social control over the people by the secular authorities of the Roman Empire.
*
*
Conybeare then goes on and quotes the biblical scholar Dr. C.R. Gregory, and writes: "In the case just examined (Matthew 28:19), it is to be noticed that not a single manuscript or ancient version has preserved to us the true reading. But that is not surprising, for as Dr. C.R. Gregory, one of the greatest of our textual critics, reminds us, 'The Greek MSS of the Text of the New Testament were often altered by the scribes, who put into them the readings which were familiar to them, and which they held to be the right readings' (Canon and Text of the New Testament, 1907, p. 424)".
*
Conybeare then writes: "These facts speak for themselves. Our Greek texts, not only of the Gospels, but of the Epistles as well, have been revised and interpolated by orthodox copyists. We can trace their perversions of the text in a few cases, with the aid of patristic citations and ancient versions. But there must remain many passages which have been so corrected, but where we cannot today expose the fraud".
*
*
In the publication, The Fraternal Visitor, this assessment was made concerning the falsification of the scriptures: "Codex B (Vaticanus) would be the best of all existing MSS, …if it were completely preserved, less damaged, (less) corrected, more easily legible, and not altered by a later hand in more than two thousand places. Eusebius, therefore, is not without grounds for accusing the adherents of Athanasius and the newly-risen doctrine of the trinity of falsifying the Bible even more than once" (Fraternal Visitor 1924, p. 148; translated from Christadelphian Monatshefte).
And what does the bible warn us of?
Deuteronomy 4:2
King James Version (KJV)
2Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
*
*
Deuteronomy 12:32
King James Version (KJV)
32What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.
*
Proverbs 30:5-6
5Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
6Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
*
Revelation 22:18-19
King James Version (KJV)
18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
It is obvious God knew people would alter His word and warns against it. And we all know how well man has obeyed God warnings.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Peace
