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Forgive me for saying so - but you seem to be out of your depth here Alpha....HK
Come on, Harold . . . engage someone who exceeds whatever depth of knowledge you and Donna THINK you have instead of ducking the most relevant questions about your precious laws . . . what is the "Spirit" of them . . . what "state of mind" were they designed to promote in the savages of the day? How might that same "state of mind" manifest in the more spiritually evolved humans of today? Why so stuck on the "obedient pet" model of spiritual development? Alpha's depth is more than adequate to engage your childish views, IMO.
So what say you, Harold and Donna? Do you agree with the above statement? Has all your teaching about sin have to do with our salvation, or only what we are to do with the salvation we have already obtained?
Verna would have to explain it more fully... We are offered salvation which is a process - those who commit sin will not have final salvation.
Phi 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
If salvation were already complete for believers as some believe, Paul's comment would be nonsensical - So what say you
Verna would have to explain it more fully... We are offered salvation which is a process - those who commit sin will not have final salvation.
Phi 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
If salvation were already complete for believers as some believe, Paul's comment would be nonsensical - So what say you
HK
Verna, please elaborate?
Harold, I agree with you that we must endure to the end. I am not a believer of once saved always saved. Where I disagree with you is what blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is...the only unforgivable sin. I believe as long as we never turn our back completely on the Word of God (not meaning one willful sin as you believe), and we continue to try to keep living in the light, we are continually cleansed of all unrighteousness.
Ignorance okay..let me tell you about ignorance..and God forgive me because i dont usually cross lines...but ignorance is what you and your followers are...You come onto this forum...you talk in circles, you cut others down in their beliefs, you actually remind me of a cult. There i said it...i get on this forum and when i see certain names...i get sick in my stomach. There use to be good fellowship, loving fellowship..a place where "newbies" could come and seek. Not come and seek and find you to where your ways are the only way. I couldnt figure out why i felt so strongly against you..and its really not against you personally...but it finally hit me...God is protecting me from lies. God is protecting me and guiding me in the right direction. Like i said before i can not quote you scriptures...i can not recite the Bible...i read my Bible every day i grow in the word....However, every time i see posts from you its sickening. I love the Lord Mr. Kupp, Mrs. Kupp and whoever is going to write back and blast me for this...I believe that if you sin, and you ask for forgiveness and the Lord will know if its sincere or not...he will forgive...he will guide you in the right direction. I believe being saved is asking Jesus Christ into your heart...i believe it doesnt stop there...i believe every day is a new day that you should wake up and ask for forgiveness from the Lord. I believe even though we may try not to sin...we will stumble, and God is there to pick me up...Every day is a new day Mr. Kupp...every day i ask The Lord into my heart again and again. I dont apologize for not following your beliefs...i dont push you to believe mine...but how dare you come onto this forum and discredit others for not believing the way you do. How dare you and others come on here and run others out because they feel either one...they dont fit in...or they wont make it because they dont follow what you believe. There was a point in time on here that we could discuss others beliefs and sure they got a little heated at times...but those people came back together again and the disagreements were over with..You Mr. Kupp seem to like to keep them going and going...If you feel the need to type back to me and blast at me...you feel free to do so...I am a child of God..he loves me for me. He knows whats in my heart. And what you have to say to me Mr. Kupp is words from Satan.
So it's context on this argument but when we start talking about the Law and Who is the end of it, we throw context out the window!
Thanks for clearing that up!
Romans 10:4 went into effect when He said 'It is finished!' NOW THAT IS THE CONTEXT for Matthew 5:18.....
I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
When was everything accomplished? (We're talking about context, right? You brought that up!)
So when Jesus said 'It is finished!'....was it? Or is it yet to be finished?
ANSWER for those set free by the Son: When He said it, it was done.
ANSWER for those not set free by the Son: When you are good enough.
Ok lets go into depth of what is finished;
Do you still sin? Well thats not finished.
Was the Bible complete when Christ said "It is finished"? Ah it wasnt.
Here is an easy one;
Had Christ been resurrect yet? Ah there was still more to do.
Do we need more context or are we to continue manipulating Christs intent?
"It is finished" another words His sacrifice for the worlds sins was done, no further need for sacrifice.
Now lets go to your quote:
I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
Is everything accomplished? NO
Has Christ returned for his faithful? NO
Do you have a perfect body? NO
Does sin still exist? YES
Is Satan cast into the lake of fire? NO
Do we need more context or can we come to some sort of mutual agreement that the word has been twisted into a lie. Satan wants us to believe that all we have to do is say a few words and we are fine, but those words are meaningless if they are not heartfelt and how do we know if they are heartfelt? You will know them by their fruit. Do I need to repeat the fruit of the Spirit or do we all have a good idea of what good fruit is verses bad fruit?
Come on, Harold . . . engage someone who exceeds whatever depth of knowledge you and Donna THINK you have instead of ducking the most relevant questions about your precious laws . . . what is the "Spirit" of them . . . what "state of mind" were they designed to promote in the savages of the day? How might that same "state of mind" manifest in the more spiritually evolved humans of today? Why so stuck on the "obedient pet" model of spiritual development? Alpha's depth is more than adequate to engage your childish views, IMO.
You might want to reread your post, you sound like Satan in the wilderness when he taunted Christ. Just an observation not an accusation.
I know it must be difficult to be fair and balanced in a discussion like this when you act as moderator.
So I know you will be fair when I point out that to understand Donna's point you must listen to other verses on the same subject.
You suggested that because Jesus did not quote all of the ten commandments he was not referring to the ten.
(Get ready for the 'NO NO....let me explain...')
James did the explanation:
Jam 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Jam 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
If you were not able to follow James point - let me help you understand this basic concept.
The ten commandments is one law with ten parts. They cannot be separated. That is why James said if you break one you are guilty of all.
So you can be certain that when Jesus quoted from the ten commandments written by the finger of God he was not excluding any.
Donna's point was that Jesus was not referring to the Mosaic law which was temporary but to the ten commandments.
Condescension noted.
James doesn't mention any 10 commandments. James says 'the whole law'...do you believe James or not? If you so, then your arguments about ONLy the 10 is null and void...if you don't, I can't help you.
I do believe James and the WHOLE law IS Jesus.
Donna's (and yours) points don't need to be pointed out. I can read and I understand basic biblical teachings. Remember, Christ said a child knows how to come to Him. I don't need a lot of wordy posts to tell me a simple truth: Christ came to set me free. And He did. And I will not be put back in bondage by a self-righteous 'teacher' and his unbiblical wife.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harold Kupp
Then you said:
Care to provide any scriptural basis for 'temporary laws'? I mean, besides your own skewed version of your truth.
This comment leaves one gasping at the lack of understanding in the speaker.
The Scriptural basis for "temporary laws" is the fact that we no longer have to sacrifice animals or submit to any of the priestly functions for they were ummmm well, temporary.
Surely you agree that we no longer have to obey that part of the Mosaic law because for lack of a better word - they were temporary?
Forgive me for saying so - but you seem to be out of your depth here Alpha....
HK
Really?
Out of my depth?
hehehe.....ok.
All you just did was prove to me that the law means the law. No difference in the Levitcal, Mosaic, or ritualistic my friend. I asked for evidence and you gave me what you have: Nothing. so you resort to ad hominem attacks.
Classic.
No, see Harold, I appreciate what you just did.
You are either UNDER THE ENTIRE LAW.....or set free from THE ENTIRE LAW.
which is exactly what I believe and have been saying.
You da man!
Last edited by Alpha8207; 02-16-2009 at 06:59 PM..
...I answered this post, and now you're avoiding answering mine...your silence is deafening.
Wow Verna, you're getting the same personality of your teachers. I responded to your post. I've read your scripture. You posted Rom 10:9 and I told you the Kupps don't believe that. They've made that clear in their teachings. You posted Galatians 5 about not using our freedom to sin and I posted a link to a post where I echoed that same sentiment.
Unfortunately, your formatting prevented me from discerning what you posted from Hebrews, but Hebrews talks AT LENGTHS about the imperfect law being set aside a new law being established....which is what I've been saying:
And I'd appreciate the consideration that I might have a family and life outside of City-Data before you start making comments like 'my silence is deafening'. I've spoken now....no more 'silence'.
What now, Verna?
My guess is the Kupps will rush to your defense and once again my comment about 'You're not listening anyway.' will hold true.
As I said before, test everything.....especially what I tell you. I'm only human and don't have a direct line to God (aside from the scriptures and the Holy Spirit). I've just been reading my bible a little bit.
Last edited by Alpha8207; 02-16-2009 at 07:01 PM..
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Come on Alpha...be fair...you started this....
Thanks for clearing that up!