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People on this forum ask all the time, if unviersal salvation is true, why should anyone live a good life? Why not sin all you want? This is an absurd and revealing response if you think about it. "Why not sin all you want?" Are you kidding me? Is the only reason you are not out sinning up a storm, cheating on your wife, stealing, murdering is because you don't want to go to hell, and if there was no threat of eternal hell that is what you would rather be doing?
God has given us all a conscience so we can have an idea when we are doing something right or wrong (even though we may not always listen to it).
Here is an excerpt from the above article:
Why live a good life if God plans to save everyone in the end -- no matter what they have done? It’s amazing how often folks ask that question without giving more thought to it before they voice it. My first response to people who pose that question is another question: "Are you saying the only reason you don’t cheat on your spouse, abuse your children, or steal from your neighbors is because you’re afraid of going to hell?"
The human conscience knows that right is right, because it is right. So we find it shameful to suggest that the only reason we would do right by others is to avoid being trashed and burned forever. And rightly so! How would you react if your neighbor told you that fear of endless hell was his main "reason," bottom line, for not stealing your wife, or molesting your children, or running over you with his car if you got in his way? Would you look forward to developing an intimate friendship with him?
Furthermore, some might claim that atheist choose not to believe in God so they can "sin all they want". I think nothing is further from the truth here. Are atheists really only running around cheating on their spouse, stealing from their neighbor, and murdering their brothers?
For me there is nothing better in life than having a clear conscience which comes through faith in Jesus ,
I dabbled with a few other things before i heard the good news and none of them did this for me.
How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!
interestingly, for me it appears people who don't believe in hell often live more sincere and pious than those who believe in hell.
Jews commonly don't believe in hell (eternal torment) as far as I know, and I suppose they take their belief more serious than many catholics e.g.
Jehovah Witnesses and Seven Day Adventists do not believe in hell either, yet they live very pious.
I "belong" to the "concordant community", we are biblical universalists, yet this community appears more pious and sincere than mainstream protestantism (in Germany), I knew many muslim boys who believe in hell, yet they don't live very pious.
to believe in hell, does make one hardly a better person
Even though you desire to sin, if you "give up" your sinful ways, you will be saved.
Giving up the sinful ways of man should be the desire of ALL who call themselves Christian. It is called repentance. You cannot be saved by repentance,,,but it shows evidence that you ARE saved. This doesn't mean desire doesn't creep up it's ugly head again. This is called trials and tribulations, leading us into a True Repentance.
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When the real message is this:
Saith you. What Jesus said wasn't enough?
"Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."
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You will be saved from your sinful ways, so you will no longer desire to sin.
This is attainable when living in the Spirit of Christ. How does one get saved FROM sinful ways? How does one no longer "desire" to sin? Are we not human? This is attainable only by walking in the Spirit, in this life. Otherwise it is impossible. This can only be done when you are rebirthed into His Kingdom.
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This is the good news!
The Good News is that Jesus loved us enough to lay His life down for mankind, and by doing so, we inherit eternal life through Him. But this is only given by Faith to those who believe. Not everyone believes, although everyone is given a measure of faith so that there are none with excuse.
interestingly, for me it appears people who don't believe in hell often live more sincere and pious than those who believe in hell.
By whose measuring stick?
"Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."
Mark 2:17
On hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
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"belong" to the "concordant community", we are biblical universalists, yet this community appears more pious and sincere than mainstream protestantism (in Germany), I knew many muslim boys who believe in hell, yet they don't live very pious.
Being I'm German heritage, that doesn't surprise me. Outward sincerity doesn't guarantee the truth is being taught either. That is the point Jesus was making to the Pharisee's
" And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life."John 5:37-40
The pharisse and teachers of the law were very pious, in good standing citizens, who studied the scriptures. Their complaint about Jesus, he those who believed in him... "sinners,"... former prostitutes, tax collecters, stupid fisherman
Last edited by twin.spin; 09-20-2009 at 09:01 AM..
interestingly, for me it appears people who don't believe in hell often live more sincere and pious than those who believe in hell.
You know this really is not true and it is not needed to try to prove anything that the bible says.
I know people from many walks of belief and I gaurantee you that there is not evidence that we are any better than anyone else in this regaurd.
In fact, it can work just the opposite. I know a Christian Universalist that has indicated a support of the old witch burnings by saying that america would be better off without the occult.
Now, I'll be quite honest here. If I was to rest my belief that Jesus Christ has been comissioned by the Father to be Saviour of the World and will accomplish that 100% into this realm that your bringing, I'd dump it in a minute over that.
For me personally I have NEVER met a believer in Eternal Hell in the 40 years that I was in the organized physical church system that said anything of the kind.
So, please, don't place our faith in this line of reasoning, it don't measure up.
Giving up the sinful ways of man should be the desire of ALL who call themselves Christian. It is called repentance. You cannot be saved by repentance,,,but it shows evidence that you ARE saved. This doesn't mean desire doesn't creep up it's ugly head again. This is called trials and tribulations, leading us into a True Repentance.
Agreed.
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Quote:
You will be saved from your sinful ways, so you will no longer desire to sin.
Saith you. What Jesus said wasn't enough?
"Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."
I don't fundamentally see this as different. How are we made perfect? By us doing it? Or God causing us to it? It is God who makes us perfect.
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This is attainable when living in the Spirit of Christ. How does one get saved FROM sinful ways? How does one no longer "desire" to sin? Are we not human? This is attainable only by walking in the Spirit, in this life. Otherwise it is impossible. This can only be done when you are rebirthed into His Kingdom.
Agreed.
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The Good News is that Jesus loved us enough to lay His life down for mankind, and by doing so, we inherit eternal life through Him. But this is only given by Faith to those who believe. Not everyone believes, although everyone is given a measure of faith so that there are none with excuse.
I mostly agree with you here too, except the promise is NOT that we inherit eternal life, but that we will inherit aionios life, which is simply to know God (see John 17:3).
So I would restate it as: The Good News is that Jesus loved us enough to lay His life down for mankind, and by doing so, we inherit aionios life and will know God. Only those who are given faith will believe and know God. Not everyone will believe in this life.
Anyway, the main point is it is God who causes us to be made perfect, which is part of us being saved. Not the other way around (ie. we make ourselves "perfect" and then we are saved).
well, maybe I went too far, when speaking about people who believe in hell, I had only one catholic woman and several Muslim teenagers in mind, and of course the liberal church system here in Germany, though I don't know if they still actually teach hell
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