Calling all Preterists and Futurists #4 (Matt.26:64) (woman, church, Messiah, Revelation)

‘Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.’

Jesus was talking to the High Priest and the council at his trail. It seems to suggest that they were going to see the glorified Lord coming with power and glory. See also, Rev.1:7 - ‘…every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him.’

As with the other verse:

How do we take the 2nd person plural 'you?' Is it directed at those who judged Him or is it a Representative 'you' referring to Israel?

How do we take 'the right hand of the Power?' The Ascension? Or is it tied to the 'coming on the Clouds of heaven.'

The coming on the clouds of heaven is clearly a Dan.7 reference. So even if the right hand of Power was the Ascension the coming on the clouds of heaven would still refer to His return in glory at the coming Kingdom.

I have not heard much from the furturist side of the camp on these threads.

This is the last one in Matthew and this one along with Matt.10; 16; and 24 does not bode well for the futurist and definately has problems for the Preterist.

What say Ye.

[sciotamicks]

You is plural, and deals with the Priest and King line of Israel...they are the ones responsible for the blood from Abel to Zacarias, and they are the one whom were destroyed in Revelation known as Mystery Babylon.

In Dan 7, He acsends and sits at the right hand of power, and the coming in the clouds is in judgement on Earthly Israel. Daniel 7 is panoramic, dealing with all the events from the ascension to the kingdom's descent in spirit and judgement.

Just as you noted on "Him who they pierced" is a direct referrence to Zechariah 12, where that as well was the events in view are panoramic from the first advent to the second advent when Christ brought in the consummation of His kingdom on earth that was already realised in Heaven.

All these prophecies cover many years in the making, whereas the judgement Christ predicted upon the rebellions/transgressions of the Apostate Israelis, was a one time event, utilised by Christ, through the Romans, to realise His government on Earth, as in the destruction of the temple and dispersion of the Jewish people.

The little horn or Daniel 7 is none other than Apostate Israel, just as the beast, false prophet and Satan were all united in that apostate government.

Originally Posted by sciotamicks

You is plural, and deals with the Priest and King line of Israel...they are the ones responsible for the blood from Abel to Zacarias, and they are the one whom were destroyed in Revelation known as Mystery Babylon.

In Dan 7, He acsends and sits at the right hand of power, and the coming in the clouds is in judgement on Earthly Israel. Daniel 7 is panoramic, dealing with all the events from the ascension to the kingdom's descent in spirit and judgement.

Just as you noted on "Him who they pierced" is a direct referrence to Zechariah 12, where that as well was the events in view are panoramic from the first advent to the second advent when Christ brought in the consummation of His kingdom on earth that was already realised in Heaven.

All these prophecies cover many years in the making, whereas the judgement Christ predicted upon the rebellions/transgressions of the Apostate Israelis, was a one time event, utilised by Christ, through the Romans, to realise His government on Earth, as in the destruction of the temple and dispersion of the Jewish people.

The little horn or Daniel 7 is none other than Apostate Israel, just as the beast, false prophet and Satan were all united in that apostate government.

The point of the plural 'you' being Israel was to give it a future probability - that is that a future Israel would see him not the ones Jesus was speaking to. That is how some take it in Matt.24.

As I posted elsewhere, I see the 'He came to the Ancient of Days' not as an Ascension - going up - but a lateral movement - The Son of Man was already in heaven an He came near to the Ancient of Days (v.13) in order to be given the Kingdom just prior to his return because this has to do with judgment - hence thrones, courts, and books being opened. If the coming with the clouds of heaven was the Ascension then how does the clouds of heaven relate to 70 A.D.?

I take the sitting at the right hand of Power as the Ascension and the coming on the clouds of heaven as the second coming when he sets up the visible kingdom. It would seem that both were to happen in the liftime of that generation. But I do not see how all the items in Dan.7 fit.

If the little horn in Dan.7 is Apostate Israel why does it suggest that this horn arises out of the 4th beast? What were the three kings/kingdoms that fell before him? What were the 10 horns/kings before him? How did Israel intend to change times and law? When did Israel persucute the Church for 3&1/2 years? And when did all other dominions and kingdoms serve and obey the Son of Man?

In Luke 21:31 Jesus mentions the coming kingdom after the discourse in Matt.16. And Luke’s context is when Jerusalem is surrounded – so the coming kingdom cannot be anything prior to that event.

Yet the kingdom was already spiritually present when Christ said this and by 70 A.D. So what Kingdom was he referring to? The spiritual kingdom could not have come in 70 A.D. for it was already present so Christ was reffering to the visible Kingdom or the manifestation of the spiritual kingdom when he returned.

[sciotamicks]

SHiloh,

I take the sitting at the right hand of Power as the Ascension and the coming on the clouds of heaven as the second coming when he sets up the visible kingdom. It would seem that both were to happen in the liftime of that generation. But I do not see how all the items in Dan.7 fit.

Check Rev 20:4 and align it with Dan 7:10

I take the sitting at the right hand of Power as the Ascension and the coming on the clouds of heaven as the second coming when he sets up the visible kingdom. It would seem that both were to happen in the liftime of that generation. But I do not see how all the items in Dan.7 fit.

Mystery Babylon, Apostate Israel, rides the seven Headed ten horned beast. That harlot, woman, arrayed in priestly garb, is that 11th horn.

What were the three kings/kingdoms that fell before him?

THe seven heads are mountains, as kings. These represent the Emporer worship line. Not just Claudian, but the worship lineage, which started at Julius and ended, per Tribulation sense, with Vespasian/Titus..since his son coregenced his title. The One is, is...Nero. This is the beast from the sea...the scarlet beast Rome. The Earth beast...false Prophet...two horns...lamb...speak like a dragon, is Israel. The woman is Israel.....remember Rev 12...the woman takes flight on eagle's wings into the wilderness...she is carried away by God, but what happens in that wilderness is another story, as John saw in Rev 17...where she became completely apostate. Revelation is a spirutal, covenantal book, that pertains only to Israel as a nation and church, both apostate and not in rebellion. The true and earthly.

How did Israel intend to change times and law?

She changed the law by rebelling against the heart. She changed the times by continuing with the aspostate sacrifices and rejected the messiah, Christ. This isn't times, as in 1 2 3 oclock...but times..seasons...events....occurances.

When did Israel persucute the Church for 3&1/2 years?

Israel, was in alliance with Rome...therefore this 11th horn is solely Israel, but weaved into Rome. Remember the feet of the statue in Dan 2, iron and clay. Rome is the iron, clay is Israel...the potter - God...the clay - Israel.

Nero, with the help of Israel, did persecute the church from 64-67 AD, then the attention fell from Christianity to the Jews when Vespasian assumed the throne. He figured, if he did away with Israel, that would in turn, dissolve the church. Also, we must note, that after Christ's death, the Jewish church did in fact persecute the church for roughly 3.5 years until Stephen's death, then shortly after, Paul was saved, and the attention turned to the gentiles, thus fulfilling the 70th week of Daniel in type, and in realisation in the Jewish war, that which shattered the Holy People forever.

Yet the kingdom was already spiritually present when Christ said this and by 70 A.D. So what Kingdom was he referring to? The spiritual kingdom could not have come in 70 A.D. for it was already present so Christ was reffering to the visible Kingdom or the manifestation of the spiritual kingdom when he returned.

You are right. The kingdom was present when Christ finished His work on the cross. But the Old covenant was still in place, 2 Peter 3:7,10, but it was finally consummated in 70 AD hence Rev 21:1

[katjonjj]

Originally Posted by sciotamicks

SHiloh,



Check Rev 20:4 and align it with Dan 7:10



Mystery Babylon, Apostate Israel, rides the seven Headed ten horned beast. That harlot, woman, arrayed in priestly garb, is that 11th horn.



THe seven heads are mountains, as kings. These represent the Emporer worship line. Not just Claudian, but the worship lineage, which started at Julius and ended, per Tribulation sense, with Vespasian/Titus..since his son coregenced his title. The One is, is...Nero. This is the beast from the sea...the scarlet beast Rome. The Earth beast...false Prophet...two horns...lamb...speak like a dragon, is Israel. The woman is Israel.....remember Rev 12...the woman takes flight on eagle's wings into the wilderness...she is carried away by God, but what happens in that wilderness is another story, as John saw in Rev 17...where she became completely apostate. Revelation is a spirutal, covenantal book, that pertains only to Israel as a nation and church, both apostate and not in rebellion. The true and earthly.



She changed the law by rebelling against the heart. She changed the times by continuing with the aspostate sacrifices and rejected the messiah, Christ. This isn't times, as in 1 2 3 oclock...but times..seasons...events....occurances.



Israel, was in alliance with Rome...therefore this 11th horn is solely Israel, but weaved into Rome. Remember the feet of the statue in Dan 2, iron and clay. Rome is the iron, clay is Israel...the potter - God...the clay - Israel.

Nero, with the help of Israel, did persecute the church from 64-67 AD, then the attention fell from Christianity to the Jews when Vespasian assumed the throne. He figured, if he did away with Israel, that would in turn, dissolve the church. Also, we must note, that after Christ's death, the Jewish church did in fact persecute the church for roughly 3.5 years until Stephen's death, then shortly after, Paul was saved, and the attention turned to the gentiles, thus fulfilling the 70th week of Daniel in type, and in realisation in the Jewish war, that which shattered the Holy People forever.

You are right. The kingdom was present when Christ finished His work on the cross. But the Old covenant was still in place, 2 Peter 3:7,10, but it was finally consummated in 70 AD hence Rev 21:1

Also it is my understanding that the shadow of the New Covenant is the Old Covenant. The new covenant is one of life, the old covenant is one of death. The old covenant brought in sacrifices. The new showed a better sacrifice.

The old covenant has Moses as savior sent from God, leading the people miraculously out of Egypt, into the wilderness for 40 years, and then into the land of promise. The fulfillment of the shadow is Christ as savior sent from God, leading the people out of Spiritual Egypt, Spiritual Revival/tribulation for 40 years, and then into the Kingdom of God.