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Umm, Jremy, you obviously don't know what I am talking about or you are trying to misrepresent my stance. I never said nor tried to show "Adjectives have to mean the same as the nouns from which they were derived."
I know what you are talking about. You had said:
"It is "according to the commandment of the eonian God" which means He is the God pertaining to the eons in that He is over the eons, directing them, subjecting mankind to the goal He has for each eon. God is not everlasting. He is not just lasting for an ever. The verse is not talking about how long God lasts but is talking about His relationship to the eons."
I then asked you how you got that. You responded:
Glad you asked.
tou . . . aiwniou . .theou
of the . .eonian . . .God
Please note the function of the adjective and the noun. Here are some examples:
America = noun
American = adjective
That which is American is that which pertains to America.
Example: Obama is the American president. His presidency pertains to America.
Heaven = noun
Heavenly = adjective
That which is Heavenly is that which pertains to heaven.
Example: Mary was visited by a heavenly angel. The angel's origin pertains to heaven.
Aion/Eon = noun
Aionion/Eonian = adjective
That which is Eonian is that which pertains to the eon(s).
Example: God is the eonian God. His Godness or Subjectorhood pertains to the eons.
You listed two English nouns with corresponding adjectives, showing how the adjectives have the same meaning as the nouns from which they were derived. Then you tried to use the same reasoning to show that "aiwnios" means "pertains to the eon(s) because of the noun "aion." So there is no need for me to try to understand what your post was about because I did understand it. :-) Don't try to wiggle out of this. If you did not mean that adjectives always pertain directly to the nouns they are derived from, then make that clear.
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Also, try doing what you just did only with nouns and adjectives derived from those nouns only from the Bible. Don't choke up on your keyboard now.
1.) Follow your own advice. The two examples you provided were English nouns and adjectives.
2.) Listing the English nouns and adjectives that I did is enough to show that the reasoning you were using was fallacious. Adjectives do not have to mean "pertaining to the noun from which they were derived." If you meant something else, then make that clear. Otherwise, don't be surprised when people respond the way that I did.
Correct. Though this doesn't mean we die afterward. I understand it to say that we get life that is in eonian times whereas the rest don't, they get it after the eons are finished. Therefore aionios zoe is not a reference to something beyond time but the special gift we receive in time. Now I might be wrong, but it makes perfect sense. If you have other verses where it must mean perpetually then it be nice if you could show me, I'm rather curious about your interpretation.
Hi Flaminghedge, I just did research on all the verses in the scriptures where Olam and Aionios were used. The Greek Septuagint translated aionios (Greek) from Olam (Hebrew). That tells me that those are equal in meaning but it gives me also then the entire Old Testament verses to understand the meaning as well as the New Testament. What I found was that it cannot mean ETERNAL (for one thing Eternal means NO Beginning as equally as it means NO ending). But additionally, I knew it couldn't mean limited duration either because references where it was used was to things that existed in the present age. So I knew it was talking from respect of the current age into the next or an adjacent age. Consider this verse:
Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
That bolded part is from the word AIONIOS. Now consider that the reference here is not to a specific age but that the meaning is applying to two ages. The present one and the one before that. The secret was obviouslyi kept through part of the present age and even before this age existed. Hence here we have aionios showing us the continuing point.
Hi Flaminghedge, I just did research on all the verses in the scriptures where Olam and Aionios were used. The Greek Septuagint translated aionios (Greek) from Olam (Hebrew). That tells me that those are equal in meaning but it gives me also then the entire Old Testament verses to understand the meaning as well as the New Testament. What I found was that it cannot mean ETERNAL (for one thing Eternal means NO Beginning as equally as it means NO ending). But additionally, I knew it couldn't mean limited duration either because references where it was used was to things that existed in the present age. So I knew it was talking from respect of the current age into the next or an adjacent age. Consider this verse:
Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
That bolded part is from the word AIONIOS. Now consider that the reference here is not to a specific age but that the meaning is applying to two ages. The present one and the one before that. The secret was obviouslyi kept through part of the present age and even before this age existed. Hence here we have aionios showing us the continuing point.
Alright, I had to read your explanation a couple of times to make sure I got what your saying. My only question is if there are other verses that are similar that you can derive this interpretation from as well. (It certainly can't be a one case thing.)
As for the verse you used:
Doesn't the literal interpretation of that verse say something more along the lines of: through eonian times? If it is then of course it isn't limited to an age, though the word eonian still isn't why it means that.
Yet we see that if you die to Christ during your lifetime then you experience the second death but don't suffer from it.
Where...you mean from this verse?
Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
You misunderstand this verse. He that overcome will not suffer the second death, therefore he will not "experience" the second death. He will dies physically, but NOT spiritually. That is the point. We all die naturally, but some die spiritually, that is the second death.
I won''t suffer the second death.
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So really what you are stating is that the end of the age as portrayed in Revelation has not been fulfilled? Because if we look at the last few verses in chapter 20 we see that it is those who have died prior to the period of 70 AD and not to those who will have died in the future.
No! Rev 21 is POST PAROUSIA.
Those outside of the CITY are POST PAROUSIA.
All of Revelation is fulfilled.
All Rev 21 is portraying is how the POST PAROUSIA world operates.
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But yet you still mix up the concepts of eternal life and second death.
No, I think you are mixed up. you obviously have not read enough on the subject. From the statement below:
Quote:
Second death can happen during life.
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That is what Jesus taught.
Where?
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That is what he was telling the Sadducees about the resurection. Don't wait until you are dead to figure this out.
To be resurrected from the dead, you have to die. You misunderstand this entire event and concept.
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I was just thinking the same for you. Let's talk about the references to the Age to Come. The age to come from our perspective has already come and been. I agree. So why do you refer to principals designed for those in the Age before?
I explained this in the debate continues thread. Re-read.
Originally Posted by Eusebius Oh you just got so busted! You have no scripture which states the age to come is never to end! Ha ha ha ha!
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks
You really are a piece of work. Dan 7 and Rev 22...read it...you do the work....many others, but you can start there smart guy.
You lose God wins.
I knew you couldn't find any verse which states that the age to come is never to end. If you could you would have produced it. It doesn't exist and in fact cannot exist because the very word "age" is a period of time which has a beginning and an end. So if it were endless it couldn't be called an age. "Endless age" is a contradiction in terms.
There is not one place in Revelation where aion means "endless age."
There is not one place in Daniel where aion means "endless age."
Luk 1:33 His father, and He shall reign over the house of Jacob for the eons. And of His kingdomthere shall be no consummation."
Luke 1:33 is taken directly from Daniel
Dan 7:14 to Him is granted jurisdiction and esteem and a kingdom, and all the peoples and leagues and language-groups shall serve Him; His jurisdiction, as an eonian jurisdiction, will not pass away, and His kingdom shall not be confined."
Being an eonian jurisdiction it is a jurisdiction pertaining to the final two eons. His kingdom will not be confined or consummated to just Israel but will spread over the entire surface of the earth.
In Revelation there is no verse where "age" or "eon" or "aion" could possibly mean "endless age."
"It is "according to the commandment of the eonian God" which means He is the God pertaining to the eons in that He is over the eons, directing them, subjecting mankind to the goal He has for each eon. God is not everlasting. He is not just lasting for an ever. The verse is not talking about how long God lasts but is talking about His relationship to the eons."
I then asked you how you got that. You responded:
Glad you asked.
tou . . . aiwniou . .theou of the . .eonian . . .God
Please note the function of the adjective and the noun. Here are some examples:
America = noun American = adjective That which is American is that which pertains to America. Example: Obama is the American president. His presidency pertains to America.
Heaven = noun Heavenly = adjective That which is Heavenly is that which pertains to heaven. Example: Mary was visited by a heavenly angel. The angel's origin pertains to heaven.
Aion/Eon = noun Aionion/Eonian = adjective That which is Eonian is that which pertains to the eon(s). Example: God is the eonian God. His Godness or Subjectorhood pertains to the eons.
You listed two English nouns with corresponding adjectives, showing how the adjectives have the same meaning as the nouns from which they were derived. Then you tried to use the same reasoning to show that "aiwnios" means "pertains to the eon(s) because of the noun "aion." So there is no need for me to try to understand what your post was about because I did understand it. :-) Don't try to wiggle out of this. If you did not mean that adjectives always pertain directly to the nouns they are derived from, then make that clear.
1.) Follow your own advice. The two examples you provided were English nouns and adjectives.
2.) Listing the English nouns and adjectives that I did is enough to show that the reasoning you were using was fallacious. Adjectives do not have to mean "pertaining to the noun from which they were derived." If you meant something else, then make that clear. Otherwise, don't be surprised when people respond the way that I did.
Jremy, where in my post did I say that aionion means "only for an age"? I said it means "pertaining to the eon/age or eons/ages as the case may be. How can "pertaining to the eons" mean "only for an age"?
Also, going back to the list you made up of nouns and adjectives hoping to disprove the truth that eonian is pertaining to the eon(s)" you have some problems in your understanding of the noun/adjective relationships in the words you chose:
What you wrote is incorrect. Monstrous is not the adjectival form of "monster" but rather is of monstrousness according to the American Heritage College Dictionary. So it would be like this:
Monstrousness = noun
Monstrous = adjective
The girl, after taking off her makeup, had a monstrous look about her. Her monstrous look pertains to that which has monstrousness.
Just like American pertains to America and Heavenly pertains to Heaven and Eonian pertains to eon or eons.
You, Jremy, wrote:
Quote:
love = noun
lovely = adjective
lovely: "delightful for beauty, harmony, or grace: attractive ... grand, swell ... eliciting love by moral or ideal worth"
But "lovely" is not the adjectival form of "love" but is the adjectival form for the noun "loveliness" according to American Heritage College Dictionary. So it would be like this:
Loveliness = noun
Lovely = adjective
She had a lovely dress on. Her dress is pertaining to that which has loveliness.
You, Jremy, wrote:
Quote:
home = noun
homely = adjective
homely: "suggestive or characteristic of a home; ... unaffectedly natural: simple ... not elaborate or complex ... plain or unattractive in appearance"
Homely is not the adjectival form of the word "home." Homeliness is the noun of "homely" according to the American Heritage College Dictionary.
So it would be:
Homely = noun
Homeliness = adjective
The girl had too much homileness so was not asked out to the dance. Her homileness is pertaining to homely.
You, Jremy, wrote:
Quote:
hand = noun
handy = adjective
handy: "conveniently near ... convenient for use ... of a ship : easily handled ... clever in using the hands esp. in a variety of useful ways"
Though the word "hand" is found in the adjective handy, this does not prove (as the freedictionary points out) that handy is the adjectival form for "hand." American Heritage College Dictionary also lists "handiness" as the noun for "handy." So it would be:
Handiness = noun
Handy = adjective
The guy was really handy with words. His words are pertaining to handiness just as American is pertaining to America and Heavenly is pertaining to heaven and eonian is pertaining to eon or eons as the case may be.
Alright, I had to read your explanation a couple of times to make sure I got what your saying. My only question is if there are other verses that are similar that you can derive this interpretation from as well. (It certainly can't be a one case thing.)
As for the verse you used:
Doesn't the literal interpretation of that verse say something more along the lines of: through eonian times? If it is then of course it isn't limited to an age, though the word eonian still isn't why it means that.
No because eonian times is vague. After all HOW many aions is that? Additionally, Jesus spoke from the perspective of the earthly when instructing of spiritual things. So we should expect for Him to speak of things as central to our current age during instruction.
Here is another verse to consider:
Tit 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
Again, the highlighted part is Aionios. The promise existed in this age and the previous age (prior to this one) - Adjacent age.
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