Providence vs. Pittsburgh (comparison, place, bigger, population)

[Dub King]

Wow I'm taken aback by this post. First of all I know Providence well enough having grown up there. I'm not the one to recommend Pittsburgh to anybody but it's not a meth-addict mecca and it is a much more self-contained metropolis than Providence. Providence has a lot of nice new infrastructure but plenty is still broken - check out the public schools and the neighborhood roads. People in Providence are not nice, this is the first time I've heard of such a thing.

I was just in Pittsburgh - yesterday - so I think I can speak to the condition of the place. It's not broken, in fact I think it's easier to wind up in the 'getto' in Providence than in Pittsburgh. Both are college towns with reborn CBDs, based largely on banking. Providence has Boston to lean on, Pittsburgh does everything for themselves. Both nice cities with proud pasts and bright futures. Sadly Pittsburg is far away from anything else, so it's not a place I would ever move to, but then again I wouldn't move back to providence, either.

Pittsburgh is a really beautiful city:
Pittsburgh (http://www.flickr.com/photos/imagicdigital/6217201737/ - broken link) by imagic digital (http://www.flickr.com/people/imagicdigital/ - broken link), on Flickr

[Saltatrix]

Nice photo, I don't recall it looking that nice when I was there 20 some odd yrs ago. Now, I am curious why would you not move back to Prov? Also, are you saying people there are nice? or not. I think they are nicer than the rest of New England mostly, but not compared to other parts of the country, generally spg.

[Craziaskowboi]

Originally Posted by rranger

I know what you mean by Pittsburgh feeling run-down and decayed. Once you get outside of the East End, there is a lot of Pgh that is clearly reminiscent of its mill days. And, I think that's the thing that I had the most problem with when I lived there. The "working class hero" mentality of many of the locals (yinzers) is alive and well, and there is a lot of pretty open contempt for educated folk. Maybe that's some of the lack of friendliness you experienced. You won't experience that in RI for the most part.

In Pittsburgh itself, the East End is obviously the most desirable end of town with the largest concentration of healthy neighborhoods, sort of like northwest DC or the north side of Chicago. I don't believe that it's the only game in town, though.

The South Side immediately across the Monongahela River from downtown and the East End has seen plenty of reinvestment in the last 20 years, and it's become one of the most desirable parts of the city. The reinvestment has even begun to make its way up the slopes away from the river in recent years, though it hasn't yet made it to the top, Mount Washington notwithstanding.

In the last few years, more attention has been paid to the North Side as well. For a while, the Mexican War Streets was an island of reinvestment in the middle of a sea of blight, but that's begun to change as there is now reinvestment taking place along the Federal Street corridor.There's also been increasing interest in the East Allegheny and Allegheny West neighborhoods, which are both adjacent to the North Shore, which itself is being developed as an entertainment destination thanks to the Rivers Casino, the Carnegie Science Center, Heinz Field, PNC Park, and the Andy Warhol Museum (from west to east).

Admittedly, there are still two large areas of disinvestment in the city. One of them I guess you could call the "South End" to distinguish it from the South Side. Basically, any neighborhood south of the Monongahela River that is not within eyesight of downtown Pittsburgh has been in decline, with a concentration of Section 8 housing and its accompanying crime being the main culprits.

The other large area of general disinvestment is the West End, which is just kind of there, off the beaten path. It's not a Section 8 ghetto, but it has suffered from disinvestment long enough that you'll find a few "urban prairies" there.

And while the North Side is changing for the better, it's still largely an area in transition. The neighborhoods along and east of I-279 are still being left out, and the area west of the Rivers Casino is shady. It's in the North Side along and east of I-279, and also the West End, where you're most likely to find the "working-class heroes" in the city.

Basically, aside from the East End, the South Side near downtown is nice, and a good chunk of the North Side near downtown is improving as we speak. Here's a map illustrating the general condition and the level of investment in Pittsburgh's neighborhoods:




Neighborhoods shaded in BLUE are those that are established and highly desirable, and have high levels of investment and low crime. Neighborhoods shaded in GREEN are those in transition that are improving rapidly, and have high levels of investment and low to moderate crime. Neighborhoods shaded in YELLOW are those that are stagnant with low levels of investment but low crime. Neighborhoods shaded in RED are declining rapidly, with low levels of investment and high crime. (Those areas tend to have high concentrations of Section 8 housing.) Neighborhoods highlighted with GREEN squares are those that I think are the most likely to see increased investment in the next five to 10 years.

In the suburbs, the working-class heroes tend to live to the south, east and northeast of the city. Anywhere along or near PA 51 south of the city, U.S. 30 east of the city, and PA 28 north(east) of the city is where you're most likely to find them. The upper-middle class and wealthy tend to live to the north, west and southwest of the city. Anywhere along or near I-79 and U.S. 19 north and south of the city, PA 8 north of the city, and PA 910 between I-79 and PA 8 is where you're most likely to find them.

Basically, I don't think the Pittsburgh area is as hostile to educated people as you portrayed it because there are plenty of educated people who live in the area, especially under the age of 45. Besides, "yinzers" are kind of a dying breed anyway.

Originally Posted by rranger

When I lived there, Pittsburgh also felt very much removed from the mainstream of the East Coast in a way that Providence isn't. Providence, for all of its parochial qualities (you'll understand those pretty quickly if you choose to move there) doesn't feel cut off from the rest of the Eastern Seaboard in the way Pittsburgh does. It's very hard to define, but Pittsburgh just didn't feel in the aggregate like a happening place. Ironically, it probably has many more quality jobs than Providence, but that doesn't change the overall character of the place.

That's because of the damn Allegheny Front, which is a large escarpment of metamorphic rock that runs west of Bedford, Altoona, State College and Lock Haven, and marks the boundary between the Allegheny Plateau to the west, and the Ridge-And-Valley Appalachians to the east. Because of its elevation, it's one of the windiest areas in the eastern United States, and it's also part of the Eastern Continental Divide. Because it's metamorphic rock, it's been difficult to erode, and difficult to dig into or tunnel through.

The Allegheny Front is the main reason why Amtrak service between Pittsburgh and Harrisburg is slower, less efficient and less reliable than it is between Harrisburg and Philadelphia, and it's also why the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission's estimated cost for boring a new Allegheny Mountain Tunnel is so high. It's a challenge for all civil engineers, and a hell of a psychological boundary to boot.

Be that as it may, I think Pittsburgh has been slowly aligning its economy more with the rest of the Northeast over the last 20 years. The only real similarity it had with cities in the Midwest in the first place is that it had a heavy manufacturing presence, but even the type of manufacturing was different. Pittsburgh and western Pennsylvania was always more like Buffalo and upstate New York, specializing in raw materials and commodities, while the cities in Ohio, Michigan, Indiana and Illinois specialized in finished products. This is why manufacturing in Pennsylvania and New York collapsed more completely in the 1980's than it did in any of the Midwestern states.

Culturally, Pittsburgh's roots have always been Northeastern, but with a little bit of northern Appalachian and Midwestern influence. I don't think its connection to northern Appalachia will weaken much simply because it's the "big city" in the region, but I do think its connection to the Midwest has been weakening in the last 20 years while its connection to the rest of the Northeast has been strengthening. In terms of gross migration flows (total inflow plus total outflow), Pittsburgh's three strongest flows are with Washington DC, Philadelphia and New York. Among its 10 largest gross migration flows, only three of them are with cities to its west: Youngstown, OH; Cleveland and Chicago.

Personally, I think that if Amtrak upgrades the rail corridor between Pittsburgh and Harrisburg, then Pittsburgh will feel more tied in with the rest of the Northeast, and even moreso if a passenger rail corridor gets built between Pittsburgh and Washington DC.

[Port Pitt Ash]

Originally Posted by boulevardofdef

A little while back we got very excited about Pittsburgh. I'm not quite sure how it started, but on paper, it seemed to be perfect.

Originally Posted by boulevardofdef

We thought about it a lot later and were able to boil down our problems with Pittsburgh into two main points.

First, Pittsburgh has long had a reputation as rundown. What I'd been hearing was that hey, that was once true, but no longer! You should visit Pittsburgh -- it's a whole new city! It's not a crumbling steel town anymore. Then I visited and found that, well, it's kind of a crumbling steel town. Oh, sure, there are things happening, even pretty exciting things like that aforementioned riverfront park. But I didn't see a single neighborhood that was really polished. Some of them seemed like they were getting there, but none of them looked finished, you know? I need there to be at least one neighborhood in town that's perfect.

Yeah, I always thought the same thing about Pittsburgh and I lived there for several years. I still love the city, but it never had that little extra thing I needed.

So how did it work out? I noticed you had a favorite places post, but didn't ever follow-up with the likes/dislikes and pros/cons post.

[sskink]

"Yinzers" are really not much different than "Southies" from South Boston. They're here, you can't miss them when you run into them, and perhaps Hollywood and media make it seem like they're the prevailing culture, but that's totally false.

I was born and raised in CT and lived for a bit up in Quincy. Have visited RI many times (dated a girl from Woonsocket for a couple of years). I've been in Pittsburgh for a dozen years.

When I first moved here (by necessity as my startup employer in Quincy was all but wiped out by 9/11 and my wife was from Pittsburgh), I thought it sucked. Nowhere to eat, not much happening, a lot of cultural institutions for its size but not much "cultural awareness". That's mostly changed. There's far more entrepreneurial spirit here than I ever saw in CT, and excepting the tech sector, more than in Boston. New stuff happening all the time. Age is trending younger. Lower real estate costs makes it affordable to take risks, even though venture capital might be harder to come by than in the major tech centers and Pitt/CMU often get in their own way in commercializing the stuff that originates there.

In the dozen years I've been here the area of Lawrenceville has been turned around. Stretches of Garfield/Friendship along Penn Ave are being redeveloped. East Liberty will shortly have three boutique hotels when nobody wanted to visit it a few years ago. Even "ghettos" like Larimer have seen some redevelopment.

It's a great place for someone to start a business and do their own thing. The city itself is very welcoming, although the state can still be a hassle. Which is not to suggest it's perfect. Mass transit is still an issue. The topography does lead to separation of neighborhoods (not to mention a difficult place to bike). Taxes are high for what you get, but IMO, similar to many New England cities (certainly lower than Bridgeport). Liquor laws are 19th century and yet the populace in general is more libertarian than MA/RI/CT (but not NH or ME, obviously).

However, we don't do "polished". If you scratch the surface of pretty much anything in Pittsburgh, you'll find some grit there. It's just part and parcel of what and who this city is. If you want pretty, you're not finding it in the city environs, except perhaps parts of Squirrel Hill and Point Breeze. And IMO, folks here are fine with that.

[boulevardofdef]

Originally Posted by Port Pitt Ash

Yeah, I always thought the same thing about Pittsburgh and I lived there for several years. I still love the city, but it never had that little extra thing I needed.

So how did it work out? I noticed you had a favorite places post, but didn't ever follow-up with the likes/dislikes and pros/cons post.

I didn't know anyone was waiting for it! I'll probably do one eventually. But it worked out great -- I love it here. About a year and a half ago, my wife and I spent the night in Pittsburgh while taking the long way from Chicago to New York, and we still weren't into it. I made a point of hitting East Carson Street, which was probably my favorite part of the city the first time I visited, and I found I didn't even like that as much as I'd remembered. (It didn't help that it was late on a weeknight and everything was pretty dead.)

I'm not the kind of guy who believes in empirical truth when it comes to matters of taste, and there are certainly plenty of people out there who would prefer Pittsburgh. But after living nearby for a year, I'd still take Providence every time. The history, the food, the vibrant neighborhoods, the sophistication, the proximity to the beaches and Boston and everything New England -- it's just what I was looking for. Of course, having found a job before I got here didn't hurt.

Interestingly, I never did end up living in Providence, though in my first year in Rhode Island, I was close enough to Providence that on my commute home, I'd exit the highway in the city limits and drive the rest of the way home on local roads. I'm farther away now, which I don't love, but where I am has its own benefits. I was a city guy and I was used to thinking of areas in terms of cities; I'm becoming much more suburbanized. Never even owned a car until I got here.

[Port Pitt Ash]

Originally Posted by boulevardofdef

I didn't know anyone was waiting for it! I'll probably do one eventually. But it worked out great -- I love it here. About a year and a half ago, my wife and I spent the night in Pittsburgh while taking the long way from Chicago to New York, and we still weren't into it. I made a point of hitting East Carson Street, which was probably my favorite part of the city the first time I visited, and I found I didn't even like that as much as I'd remembered. (It didn't help that it was late on a weeknight and everything was pretty dead.)

I did live on E. Carson St. and another place a few blocks off of E. Carson St. for about a year and a half so I know the area well. Between six and seven years in Pittsburgh altogether and while I loved living there it was missing a key ingredient.

The amount of feeling invested in the football team always disturbed me a bit and the untalked about segregation was a troubling.

Only real concerns I have about Providence are whether or not it'll feel too small and if I really want to go back to having a true winter. Geographically I'm good with small as long as it doesn't feel empty.

[Duderino]

Originally Posted by Port Pitt Ash

=
The amount of feeling invested in the football team always disturbed me a bit and the untalked about segregation was a troubling.

Not to derail this conversation, but I don't find that to be quite fair to single Pittsburgh out in that regard. Honestly, no city in the Eastern US should be proud of the limited racial integration, and Providence is definitely included.

[Craziaskowboi]

Originally Posted by Duderino

Not to derail this conversation, but I don't find that to be quite fair to single Pittsburgh out in that regard. Honestly, no city in the Eastern US should be proud of the limited racial integration, and Providence is definitely included.

Furthermore, the amount of feeling invested in the football team in Pittsburgh is no different than the amount of feeling invested in the baseball team in Boston or St. Louis.

[Port Pitt Ash]

Originally Posted by Duderino

Not to derail this conversation, but I don't find that to be quite fair to single Pittsburgh out in that regard.

Why not? I'm giving my opinion of my time spent living there and what bothered me about it.

Originally Posted by Gnutella

Furthermore, the amount of feeling invested in the football team in Pittsburgh is no different than the amount of feeling invested in the baseball team in Boston or St. Louis.

Probably. Never lived in Boston or St. Louis so I can't comment on that. Point is getting genuinely depressed for a week over a loss is perhaps not the healthiest way to live you life.