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eschaton's map had a "gray zone" that was deemed mainly commercial. I think it's foolish to think that people are living at the top of some 7 story department store, or some 20 story office building.
They gray areas are mainly non-residential, not really commercial. To summarize these neighborhoods:
Central Business District: Approximately 3,600 people in 2010. Back in 1950 it was 7,500, and then plummeted to 2,200 by 1960 due to clearance for Gateway Center, the Civic Arena and other urban renewal. Downtown is obviously the major job center for the city, but there's relatively little downtown shopping, except for convenience businesses catering to workers and expensive restaurants in the Cultural District (e.g., the part of downtown where the plays and operas are shown).
Chateau: In 1940, 8,300 people lived here. In 2010 only 11. This is not a typo. The area was once part of the adjoining neighborhood of Manchester, which was a mixed-use neighborhood with a major commercial thoroughfare (Beaver Avenue) and industrial properties along the riverside. Some time in the 1960s they decided to split the neighborhood in two, turn Beaver Avenue into a near highway, and clear out the whole portion of the neighborhood on the "river side" for more industrial properties. Only one house remains in the neighborhood, but more people live in a little run-down marina. There's not really any retail either, unless you count a few fast food places nearby.
South Shore: Only 19 people live here, and they seem to live in a few houses on the hillside that technically ended up in the neighborhood because Pittsburgh defines neighborhoods by census tracts. That said, the neighborhood never had more than a few hundred people. It does have retail, in the form of Station Square, which was an attempt to build a sort of urban shopping mall with riverboat tours of Pittsburgh to lure in suburbanites. The mall essentially failed, and the only things there which make significant money now are a few of the dance clubs there (although they are somewhat seedy.
Strip District: Back in 1940 around 4,400 people lived here. This fell to around 250 in 2000, but due to the success of the Cork Factory (mentioned before), it rose to over 600 by 2010. There's a huge amount of loft conversions and new construction in the Strip, so I'd say it's a given it will hit at least 2,000 by 2020. This area does actually have a very successful open-air market/produce retail which spans around six blocks of Penn Avenue. It's actually much more a commercial district for suburban commuters than the city itself in some ways, so it's one case where Katiana is right. Still, the vast majority of the neighborhood is still zoned industrial, and is mostly warehouses, parking lots, or business-to-business wholesale.
The real mixed-use neighborhoods with walkable retail - Shadyside, Squirrel Hill, South Side Flats, Bloomfield, and Lawrenceville mostly - have significant populations and are very desirable. I'll have to check on the density question, but it may be hard to figure out, since many neighborhoods have large parks, hillsides, or industrial areas which can throw off averages.
I'd argue that yes they're urban. And yeah there are some other blocks that have street walls outside of the list I provided. I just mentioned the primary urban nodes.
I would say there are a number of other strips/neighborhoods throughout Seattle that have street walls. But clearly it doesn't compare to cities like NYC, Philly, or SF which have street walls throughout the majority of the City.
[quote=MDAllstar;32601717]Are many of those urban villages what people in the Bos-Wash corridor would call urban? I'm just asking since you're from Seattle, you would know what the neighborhoods are really like. I looked at some of those neighborhoods and I'm wondering why they are called urban villages. What makes them urban versus places that are outside of those villages? Maybe it's places that will be bulldozed and cleared to make way for urban development, however, that seems like an awful lot of people to kick out of their homes. I don't see how that is legal.[/QUOTE
I would say that all the urban villages between Downtown and Phinney-Greenwood are fairly legit urban villages (I can post streetviews if you'd like), although they range from very urban to walkable commercial corridors/districts with some urban elements. Northgate and Lake City are on their way but not quite there yet, while Bitter Lake and Aurora have a very long way to go. South of Pioneer Square, Columbia City is urban but the rest aren't quite there yet either. In West Seattle, West Seattle Junction and Admiral are urban, Morgan Junction sort of, while the rest aren't there yet (although they do have walkable areas). It's also worth noting that there are other small urban nodes that, for one reason or another, are not designated as villages.
So, in summary, the 10 urban villages that make up the core of the City are without a doubt urban, most of the ones directly North of the ship canal are fairly urban. and of the remianing ones about a third are urban, a third have urban elements but aren't quite there yet, and there are about 6 or 7 that have a very long way to go before they are urban.
But because of their urban village status the laws are in place to upzone and add urban infrastructure investments when the time is right.
Overall, outside of the core (downtown plus inner neighborhoods), a lot of people describe Seattle as feeling like a lot of small town downtowns in very close proximity to each, with some actually feeling like urban districts and some really feeling like a walkable small town. In general, Seattle is like a collage - there are sections like Belltown, Westlake, Pioneer Square and Capitol Hill that are very, very urban, there are sections that feel suburban, and then there is everything in between. In that sense, it has an inconsistent urban fabric but there is still a decent chunk of urbanity to be found throughout the City.
I'm definitely not making the argument that it is in the same ballpark as NYC, Chicago, SF, Philly, DC, and Boston. Clearly it's not. But I do think it's more urban than Minneapolis, Denver, and Pittsburgh. Not only is Seattle's urban core much bigger with a lot more different sections, but cumulatively there are more urban sections outside of the core than Pittsburgh. In twenty years, when there are multiple Subway lines connection dozens of neighborhoods in the City, no doubt Seattle will be substantially more urban than Pittsburgh.
There's a reason Seattle (71) has a significantly higher walkscore than Pittsburgh (60). Walkscore is far from perfect, but it generally aligns with a City's urbanity fairly well.
That wouldn't be close to urban compared to any urban neighborhoods in NYC, DC, Philly, Bos, SF, or Chicago for instance, but is far more urban than any single family home neighborhoods in other cities. The houses are all tightly packed and the homes don't have yards. The green space is restricted to street tree's or bushes in front of the house's and the garages are in alleys behind the homes. Those are the basics for urbanity at first glance in any neighborhood. The next level would be shopping, transit, population density etc. This is how an urban analysis is done. You must first begin with a structural building density analysis to see if the neighborhood even qualifies to go to the second set of criteria. Most of the neighborhoods in Seattle I have seen outside of the 1 mile radius from downtown don't pass the first test to even move to the second set of criteria.
A one mile radius from Downtown? The Downtown/Inner Neighborhoods core of Seattle is about 2.5 X 3 miles in itself. So if you mean a 1 mile radius from the edges of that core area, I'll say you'd get a mixed bag. There certainly are urban portion, along with sections that are not urban at all - that really applies to a 2-3 mile radius from the edge of the urban core.
But I think you underestimate the size of that core. You can walk from the South edge of Pioneer Square up to Belltown, through the Denny Triangle to Westlake, then up to First Hill and Capitol Hill and you'd be walking for a couple of hours through an array of urban neighborhoods (and I didn't even include Queen Anne, SLU or Cascade). It's not like Downtown Seattle is 5 by 5 blocks or something, it's a collection of several different areas and a handful of adjacent urban neighborhoods. Everything on this (save a few still-rundown section of the Denny Triangle) is fairly urban and vibrant. It's not a small area, and in fact this map cuts off most of Lower Queen Anne and part of SLU/Cascade.
That streetview isn't in Pittsburgh, but the suburbs. A first ring suburb in this case.
Pennsylvania has a weird zip code system where some suburbs don't have their own zip code. In some cases the zip codes are for places which don't exist and have no local governance. In other cases around Pittsburgh some suburban areas go by "Pittsburgh" on their mailing address even though they aren't.
That said, there are plenty of similar areas within city limits. True suburban areas (as in neighborhoods with frequent driveways and garages and the like) probably don't comprise more than a fifth of the city though.
A one mile radius from Downtown? The Downtown/Inner Neighborhoods core of Seattle is about 2.5 X 3 miles in itself. So if you mean a 1 mile radius from the edges of that core area, I'll say you'd get a mixed bag. There certainly are urban portion, along with sections that are not urban at all - that really applies to a 2-3 mile radius from the edge of the urban core.
But I think you underestimate the size of that core. You can walk from the South edge of Pioneer Square up to Belltown, through the Denny Triangle to Westlake, then up to First Hill and Capitol Hill and you'd be walking for a couple of hours through an array of urban neighborhoods (and I didn't even include Queen Anne, SLU or Cascade). It's not like Downtown Seattle is 5 by 5 blocks or something, it's a collection of several different areas and a handful of adjacent urban neighborhoods. Everything on this (save a few still-rundown section of the Denny Triangle) is fairly urban and vibrant. It's not a small area, and in fact this map cuts off most of Lower Queen Anne and part of SLU/Cascade.
I agree Seattle's downtown core is more urban than Pittsburgh. It's not really close actually. It's the neighborhoods outside of the core that aren't that urban. For about 3 miles along the coast and one mile headed away from the coast, it's very urban. Other than that, it's not in my opinion. The capitol hill neighborhood is just not urban to me.
I agree Seattle's downtown core is more urban than Pittsburgh. It's not really close actually. It's the neighborhoods outside of the core that aren't that urban. For about 3 miles along the coast and one mile headed away from the coast, it's very urban. Other than that, it's not in my opinion. The capitol hill neighborhood is just not urban to me.
I agree Seattle's downtown core is more urban than Pittsburgh. It's not really close actually. It's the neighborhoods outside of the core that aren't that urban. For about 3 miles along the coast and one mile headed away from the coast, it's very urban. Other than that, it's not in my opinion. The capitol hill neighborhood is just not urban to me.
11,000+ people per square mile is not urban?
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