Another "moving to Cleveland post" with specific questions (Columbus: condos, home)

[L2DB]

Originally Posted by WRnative

No, we're not missing your point, we're just discounting, based on the evidence and our knowledge of SH, whatever negative inference you are attempting to make about SH.

Pointing out a logical fallacy is not the same as supporting the opposing viewpoint.

Originally Posted by WRnative

Clevelander1991 in posts 46 and 51 explained that over 10 percent of the SH population lives in a hyper affluent neighborhood. Doesn't that matter?

Not much if it's the only support for "I'd recommend SH to anyone" or whatever.

Another 40 percent of the SH population lives in a highly affluent area as the median family income for the entire city is over $105,000.

If a large portion of the remainder of the city has family incomes of over $70,000, SH is extremely affluent.

Even a single house on sale for $100,000 doesn't tell us much in SH, as it may be a house with a $300-400,000 replacement cost that needs much work.

This, at least, comes closer though it doesn't explain why there are standard "here's where you want to be in SH" responses on here.

And I suppose the juxtaposition of "don't judge our test scores because we have all these poor kids" and "there aren't any bad/poor neighborhoods in SH" is explained by the small sliver of Cleveland proper included in the school district? (Maybe it is - I don't know.)

[WRnative]

Originally Posted by L2DB

Pointing out a logical fallacy is not the same as supporting the opposing viewpoint.



Not much if it's the only support for "I'd recommend SH to anyone" or whatever.



This, at least, comes closer though it doesn't explain why there are standard "here's where you want to be in SH" responses on here.

And I suppose the juxtaposition of "don't judge our test scores because we have all these poor kids" and "there aren't any bad/poor neighborhoods in SH" is explained by the small sliver of Cleveland proper included in the school district? (Maybe it is - I don't know.)

You didn't answer the questions. Instead you responded with IMO gobbledygook.

Most relevant response: "Maybe it is -- I don't know"

[L2DB]

Originally Posted by WRnative

You didn't answer the questions. Instead you responded with IMO gobbledygook.

Maybe a non-SH based analogy will help... Here's an equivalent conversation:

C1991: I ate at Lolita and it was great so I'd recommend any restaurant in Cleveland to anyone.

Me: Ummm... Sample size/LOL.

You: L2DB, you're saying there aren't any good restaurants in Cleveland?

Me: Ummm... Lols? I'm saying his experience at Lolita has nothing to do with other restaurants in Cleveland.

You: L2DB, WHAT ABOUT FAHRENHEIT?!?!!?! YOU'RE TELLING ME THAT'S NOT GOOD!?!?!!!?!?!

Me:

[theurbanfiles]

Originally Posted by L2DB

Maybe a non-SH based analogy will help... Here's an equivalent conversation:

C1991: I ate at Lolita and it was great so I'd recommend any restaurant in Cleveland to anyone.

Me: Ummm... Sample size/LOL.

You: L2DB, you're saying there aren't any good restaurants in Cleveland?

Me: Ummm... Lols? I'm saying his experience at Lolita has nothing to do with other restaurants in Cleveland.

You: L2DB, WHAT ABOUT FAHRENHEIT?!?!!?! YOU'RE TELLING ME THAT'S NOT GOOD!?!?!!!?!?!

Me:

Lol. The sample size isn't THAT small though. I sort of see your point, but what if it was like "Wow there's like 7-8 restaurants (rough number) in the Tremont triangle that have received nationally acclaim! Perhaps there are exceptions, but odds are, you'll be likely to have a pretty pleasant eating experience in Tremont.

: P

[WRnative]

Originally Posted by L2DB

Maybe a non-SH based analogy will help... Here's an equivalent conversation:

C1991: I ate at Lolita and it was great so I'd recommend any restaurant in Cleveland to anyone.

Me: Ummm... Sample size/LOL.

You: L2DB, you're saying there aren't any good restaurants in Cleveland?

Me: Ummm... Lols? I'm saying his experience at Lolita has nothing to do with other restaurants in Cleveland.

You: L2DB, WHAT ABOUT FAHRENHEIT?!?!!?! YOU'RE TELLING ME THAT'S NOT GOOD!?!?!!!?!?!

Me:

Sophomoric, straw man arguments don't impress me.

What are the bad neighborhoods? What are the median family incomes in those neighborhoods?

Facts please, not subjective rantings.

[L2DB]

[dr_j_planning]

Folks, I encourage you to cite primary data if you want to substantiate your statements. Most social scientists would accept median household income as a reasonable measure (albeit just one) of a community's wealth. However, it would be most useful to cite data from organizations or researchers that actually collected the data (what makes it primary). The U.S. Census Bureau (Census.gov) is probably the best and most well-known source for community demographic data; they utilize the American Community Survey. However, it is important to note that ACS data reflects estimates, not counts; actual counts are only conducted every ten years. ACS data is estimated over 1-year, 3-year and 5-year periods, so the time period of the survey data collected will affect measures and the interpretation of those measures. The spatial unit of analysis also matters, whether it be the entire community, school district, block group, single block or census tract. The Census Bureau generally defines census tracts as "neighborhoods," with specific criteria. You could certainly make a statement about the wealth is Shaker Heights based on the median household income for the entire Shaker Heights community (especially compared to other communities), but a spatial compilation of median household income values for the census tracts of East Side suburbs would likely show a general "wedge of affluence" that includes portions of many communities and others not at all. The apex for this wedge is at University Circle/Cedar-Fairmount and broadens gradually as you move east of Lee Road, generally between Cedar Road and Van Aken/Chagrin Boulevards. The wedge broadens considerably east of I-271. North and south of this wedge are less affluent neighborhoods considerably more impacted by the steady out-migration of the low-income, minority community from Cleveland's east side neighborhoods. Example communities north of the "wedge:" Euclid, northern Cleveland Heights, Richmond Heights, South Euclid, Lyndhurst and Mayfield Heights. Example communities south of the "wedge:" Garfield Heights, Maple Heights, Bedford, Bedford Heights, Oakwood, Glenwillow and Warrensville Heights. There are zones of transition on each side of the wedge, but this is the picture you would likely generate by mapping median household income of East Side census tracts from the U.S. Census Bureau.

[theurbanfiles]

Originally Posted by dr_j_planning

Folks, I encourage you to cite primary data if you want to substantiate your statements. Most social scientists would accept median household income as a reasonable measure (albeit just one) of a community's wealth. However, it would be most useful to cite data from organizations or researchers that actually collected the data (what makes it primary). The U.S. Census Bureau (Census.gov) is probably the best and most well-known source for community demographic data; they utilize the American Community Survey. However, it is important to note that ACS data reflects estimates, not counts; actual counts are only conducted every ten years. ACS data is estimated over 1-year, 3-year and 5-year periods, so the time period of the survey data collected will affect measures and the interpretation of those measures. The spatial unit of analysis also matters, whether it be the entire community, school district, block group, single block or census tract. The Census Bureau generally defines census tracts as "neighborhoods," with specific criteria. You could certainly make a statement about the wealth is Shaker Heights based on the median household income for the entire Shaker Heights community (especially compared to other communities), but a spatial compilation of median household income values for the census tracts of East Side suburbs would likely show a general "wedge of affluence" that includes portions of many communities and others not at all. The apex for this wedge is at University Circle/Cedar-Fairmount and broadens gradually as you move east of Lee Road, generally between Cedar Road and Van Aken/Chagrin Boulevards. The wedge broadens considerably east of I-271. North and south of this wedge are less affluent neighborhoods considerably more impacted by the steady out-migration of the low-income, minority community from Cleveland's east side neighborhoods. Example communities north of the "wedge:" Euclid, northern Cleveland Heights, Richmond Heights, South Euclid, Lyndhurst and Mayfield Heights. Example communities south of the "wedge:" Garfield Heights, Maple Heights, Bedford, Bedford Heights, Oakwood, Glenwillow and Warrensville Heights. There are zones of transition on each side of the wedge, but this is the picture you would likely generate by mapping median household income of East Side census tracts from the U.S. Census Bureau.

I agree with you for official purposes. But it generally takes more time to do so hence why I just went to the CD page. I think most official and unofficial sources would agree with your sentiments, but yeah it's definitely better to use official stats to find that.

For me though, the idea of just getting news and learning stuff without having to go through five EBSCOhost sign ins and a bunch of other links/generally dry writing, is a great feeling which is not easily described. Perhaps that means I'm in the wrong field haha.

[TheProf]

Originally Posted by dr_j_planning

You could certainly make a statement about the wealth is Shaker Heights based on the median household income for the entire Shaker Heights community (especially compared to other communities), but a spatial compilation of median household income values for the census tracts of East Side suburbs would likely show a general "wedge of affluence" that includes portions of many communities and others not at all. The apex for this wedge is at University Circle/Cedar-Fairmount and broadens gradually as you move east of Lee Road, generally between Cedar Road and Van Aken/Chagrin Boulevards.

I believe this is the area included in the recent designation: "Circle-Heights"... Shaker Square, Larchmere is included too...

[Philometis]

Totally new to the thread but after growing up in Euclid, attending Ohio State, I left for the opportunity to work in finance in Florida (I skipped graduation I was so anxious to live in Florida), but as crazy as it sounds, I'm now thinking of purchasing a second home in the Cleveland area many of the posters have talked about. My knowledge is dated but not inconsistent with what I remembered and what you all have said. I would like the University Circle area, but as a "vacation" home, I also am interested in an area close by that perhaps has more upside price potential. Would greatly appreciate any ideas. I don't want to date myself, but I grew up in a 6 bedroom 7 bath house on the shore of Lake Erie and I can tell you, it was the best place to grow up I could imagine, but being in Euclid, I believe that's too far from the city for what I am desiring now... Thanks again.