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As long as college graduates make more, there's not much use in whining about how it's not as much as generations past.
The average student debt is roughly the equivalent to the cost of a moderately priced new car.
Eventually you hit a point where the ROI is not worth it. As wages go down over a lifetime and if we continue to see rising costs, the average college debt may reach the average income of a high school graduate right now. But say the college graduate drops down to where it would be for a current high school grad but the debt stays the same, that is 9K extra. However the graduate still has food, transportation, housing, utilities. A closened gap removes an economic incentive to college. Even for the wage upgrade, is 26K in debt fine if the high school grads go to 23K a year while you make only 10K more on average?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SportyandMisty
I thought I had explained that reasonably well. I'll try it differently.
I agree. Most everyone who is a recipient of subsidized higher education ends up benefiting financially. That isn't the point. Don't compare "go to college at someone else's expense vs. go to work". That's the wrong comparison from the point of view of our country overall.
So what is the right comparison?
The comparison is "what would our country look like if the money currently going to subsidize the price of higher ed was instead invested in other things" such as repair of the aging infrastructure (interstate highways & bridges, etc) or used to help pay down the national debt, etc etc. After a generation, how much better off would we be?
And, of course, if we stop subsidizing the price of higher ed, that means reducing the number of seats.
We need infrastructure BAD. The Washington state bridge anyone? This also goes into the energy grid, larger ports for larger cruise ships, highways, dams, levees, ect. That is what we need. Student loan debt, not as needed and we will be stuck with that bill. But infrastructure can help produce jobs and then increase demand and in turn produce MORE jobs. More people paying taxes, more tax revenues coming in. A bigger and higher paid middle class will pay more taxes than the 1% any year.
The problem is it's pushing the whole curve downward. You need a bachelors degree for things that should need only an associates or high school diploma. You need a masters degree or even a Ph.D. for things which should only require a bachelors.
Says who? You? Economies change and employers dictate the market. If they require or prefer a degree for a job then you need one.
Says who? You? Economies change and employers dictate the market. If they require or prefer a degree for a job then you need one.
Thats not true at all..so for secretary positions that now need a bachelors degree which is dictated by the employer, you're saying that now secretaries need a bachelors degree to do the job just because the employer says so?
Big issue is that most college students don't do serious internships (or enough internships). Internships are essentially jobs. The more experience you can get under your belt in college, the easier it is to get a full time job after college.
I interned at a Fortune 100 company for a year long program during my Jr year. Worked 2 days per week, went to class the other 3 days. Between that and another smaller internship my Sr year, I had 5 offers within weeks of graduation in 2012. Oh. And my GPA was only 3.1 from a small liberal arts school.
Big issue is that most college students don't do serious internships (or enough internships). Internships are essentially jobs. The more experience you can get under your belt in college, the easier it is to get a full time job after college.
I interned at a Fortune 100 company for a year long program during my Jr year. Worked 2 days per week, went to class the other 3 days. Between that and another smaller internship my Sr year, I had 5 offers within weeks of graduation in 2012. Oh. And my GPA was only 3.1 from a small liberal arts school.
Experience trumps grades.
The other issue is some people are crunched for time on their degree. If you have to finish your degree in four years, you could always do AP or college credit early on you can ease the load. You could also do winter and summer session courses for some gen eds and lower level courses as well. I did winter for one course (later found out I didn't need it.) The point is, that colleges emphasizes internships, BUT they don't require internships for degrees. There are a few, education and health majors that they are required but for many programs they aren't and often times takes away from the other parts of the degree programs. Until colleges make the effort to make internships a requirement that wouldn't add too much time to a degree program, I think it is a good idea.
That is student loan data as oppose to hard numbers. However if you compare 25-34 year old college graduates to college graduates in general, there is an up tick of nearly 10K to 54K. Source: Facts About the Income of Graduates
Though as of 2010, I did notice that college graduates had lower average wages than they did in 2009. One of the sites I found while looking for the average college graduate shows lists the median wage of 25-34 year old as being 44.9K rather than the 45.5K (rounded up to 46K) from 2009 you mention. source: Fast Facts Perhaps it was lower due to continued underemployment.
I wonder how trade schools such as journeyman would land on that list. It's interesting that they left all the various trades off that chart.
I thought I had explained that reasonably well. I'll try it differently.
I agree. Most everyone who is a recipient of subsidized higher education ends up benefiting financially. That isn't the point. Don't compare "go to college at someone else's expense vs. go to work". That's the wrong comparison from the point of view of our country overall.
So what is the right comparison?
The comparison is "what would our country look like if the money currently going to subsidize the price of higher ed was instead invested in other things" such as repair of the aging infrastructure (interstate highways & bridges, etc) or used to help pay down the national debt, etc etc. After a generation, how much better off would we be?
And, of course, if we stop subsidizing the price of higher ed, that means reducing the number of seats.
I think that's a false dichotomy (education vs infrastructure). You could pick anything you want and make it a "choice".
Quote:
Originally Posted by caverunner17
Big issue is that most college students don't do serious internships (or enough internships). Internships are essentially jobs. The more experience you can get under your belt in college, the easier it is to get a full time job after college.
I interned at a Fortune 100 company for a year long program during my Jr year. Worked 2 days per week, went to class the other 3 days. Between that and another smaller internship my Sr year, I had 5 offers within weeks of graduation in 2012. Oh. And my GPA was only 3.1 from a small liberal arts school.
Says who? You? Economies change and employers dictate the market. If they require or prefer a degree for a job then you need one.
What about an employees' market like it was for much of the 90's and prior to the last four years? I am guessing you would say that employers could control that employees can
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackscorpion
Thats not true at all..so for secretary positions that now need a bachelors degree which is dictated by the employer, you're saying that now secretaries need a bachelors degree to do the job just because the employer says so?
I think it depends on the company. If like to haves is an actual requirement or not. It will be interesting how much it lasts after we "recover" from the recession we are currently fighting out of.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana
Yes, another conspiracy!
Many of those are associate degree programs.
Which going by the chart I referenced it can be anywhere from an average of 38K if it was say a certificate program at the school or 40K if it was an associate degree program.
Thats not true at all..so for secretary positions that now need a bachelors degree which is dictated by the employer, you're saying that now secretaries need a bachelors degree to do the job just because the employer says so?
If you need a degree to perform a job is another debate. You can go back decades and find many jobs that you didn't have to have a degree to perform the job. The reality in the real world is does the employer require the degree or not.
The other issue is some people are crunched for time on their degree. If you have to finish your degree in four years, you could always do AP or college credit early on you can ease the load. You could also do winter and summer session courses for some gen eds and lower level courses as well. I did winter for one course (later found out I didn't need it.) The point is, that colleges emphasizes internships, BUT they don't require internships for degrees. There are a few, education and health majors that they are required but for many programs they aren't and often times takes away from the other parts of the degree programs. Until colleges make the effort to make internships a requirement that wouldn't add too much time to a degree program, I think it is a good idea.
It really is not much of a stretch to do internships and graduate in four years. The right part time job on campus or work study could even be relevant experience depending on your major.
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