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I was in undergraduate during the Viet Nam war and there were several in college at that time that were only there to avoid being drafted. They had no business there but that was what was done in those days. I knew I had to go in order to be in the profession that I chose. I also had set for myself a goal of getting the masters in my field which I did after a few years of working. I am not sorry and certainly the degrees have paid for themselves many times over.
My daughter chose to major in English and got a fellowship for a MA in English as well from a well-known East Coast University. She is underpaid at this time but works in a company that she does enjoy. I do hope that eventually she will be paid more for her education ; however, it was her choice to major in Victorian Lit. and not some STEM field.
I also see so many minority students at our local university that start out with good intentions but end up not finishing and have big debts to pay off with nothing to show for it. That is the sad part. Other avenues ( trade school) might have been a better choice for them.
It is funny when people post "studies" like this that are patently wrong. The top 10 of electricians can make up to $82,000 a year? I know electricians who make $120,000 a year and one who makes $150,000. They are either playing with the numbers somehow, or just plain fabricating. Maybe they are ignoring overtime. It is not unusual for journeyman electricians working on prevailing wage jobs to earn more a year than the guy who owns the company (assuming it is a smallish company).
By way of example in Washington prevailing wage for a journeyman electrician is listed at 62.74 and hour, Overtime is $94.11. https://www.simplyhired.com/search?q...zQSfsrlo94e1sA Working 50 hours a week for 48 weeks results in $165,000 a year. right now 50 hour weeks are pretty normal. Even cutting that down to an average of 45 hours a week for 48 weeks results in $148,000 a year.
And for the prior poster, no you do not have to go to school for four years to become an electrician. You start day 1 as an apprentice. Apprentices make considerably less. Picking a random county in California just because it was easy to find - in Alameda County CA it is $21 an hour. That is still $47,000 a year with 45 hour weeks. You are typically an apprentice for three to five years before you become a journeyman. You can accelerate that by taking classes and paying for them if you choose, but most people prefer to earn and learn, and mot employers prefer people who learned by doing.
None of this includes Sunday work or Holiday which are double-time ($124 an hour for that journeyman in Washington). There is always some double time here and there.
Some locations will pay less and non-prevailing wage jobs will pay less. However someone bright enough to go to college is bright enough to excel as an electrician and land a job with a prevailing wage company.
How many college graduates will ever get to $164,000 a year? Certainly not any Teachers. Very few in any profession. How many college graduates will work 50 hours or more a week? This I do not know, but my experience is most of them will. However it may be that most of the people I know just went into hard working professions.
Like Hector you don't go to school to become an electrician. Maybe not an entire four years, but you don't just graduate from high school, become an apprentice, put in your time and then bingo, you're making $164K/year. That would probably qualify you as an "electrician's assistant". https://www.electricianschooledu.org/ "In all jurisdictions, training and classroom hour requirements for journeyman licensure would fall within this range:
Between 576 and 1,000 hours classroom hours studying everything from electrical theory to electrical code
Between 8,000 and 10,000 hours (4-5 years) of on-the-job training"
(Emphasis mine)
Considering that a 3 credit college course involves 45 hours of class attendance (3 hrs a week X 15 weeks), that's a minimum of 13 college credits, or one semester. I was actually counting the entire time put into getting the license.
The article further says "Earning an electrician certificate or career diploma through a trade school or vocational-technical school (vo-tech), or even an associate’s degree in electrical technology through a community college or four-year school will provide you with the most thorough classroom and lab-based technical training available." I would add, doing the above will probably provide you with the most opportunity for advancement as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359
I have no problem with those who choose to pursue a trade instead of going to college.
However, what is left out of it is that every field requires a certain aptitude. Not everyone is cut out to be a plumber, electrician, or machinist. I know people who have pursued every one of those vocations. What they would tell you if you talked to them is that they could usually identify the type of person who would succeed in any of these trades before they ever started. Trade programs often have high failure rates for this reason.
The trades are not a catchall for everyone who does not want to go to college or cannot afford to go to college. They should not be sold as such.
Agreed. And those are trades that are typically, even in 2018, pursued by men. The typical women's trades are fewer (practical nursing, hairdressing/cosmetology, secretarial occupations) and pay less.
Allow me to note that some of the posters pushing this "trade" stuff the hardest have kids who have attended or are in college. It's not for their kids, it's for other kids. One in particular is extremely concerned about these other kids holding his back.
Those with non-STEM related degrees who can't find a decent paying job strongly disagree.
And a car doesn't depreciate right off the lot IF you pay more money down upfront to offset the initial depreciation a long with buying used and allowing the first owner to eat most of the depreciation.
Sounds like a failure of the degree selection process, rather than a problem with university education in general.
I can't think of one prominent person who has ever said college education is mandatory for success. Your Uncle Ray's opinion doesn't count for much.
I think college is worthwhile if the course of study is something in demand in the marketplace. Anthropology, ethnic studies, gender studies, history, photography all make better hobbies than they do degrees.
Looking at the data I would say every additional level of education makes economic sense except for the top tier, PHDs:
Its skewed as most PhDs go into academia - which is comparatively low paying.
PhDs who go into industry, Wall street etc ultimately tend to earn higher than on-PhDs
Its skewed as most PhDs go into academia - which is comparatively low paying.
PhDs who go into industry, Wall street etc ultimately tend to earn higher than on-PhDs
And if you look at the BLS data, even PhDs earn more than people with master's degrees. It's just that PhDs earn less, on average, than people with professional post college degrees, e.g. MDs, lawyers, etc. Even college profs can make $100K after a number of years. It's not the "poor professor" stereotype of 50 years ago in academia.
Its skewed as most PhDs go into academia - which is comparatively low paying.
PhDs who go into industry, Wall street etc ultimately tend to earn higher than on-PhDs
Yeah, people getting PhDs can run the gamut with what they want to do after obtaining that degree. Back in grad school, the lab where I got my Master's we had almost equal amounts of people getting their PhDs or their Master's at any one time, maybe 3-4 each.
Anyways, some in that lab getting their doctorates wanted to teach and go into academia, others wanted to go into academia and do research, but not teach, and others wanted to go into private industry immediately doing consulting/research.
One of my classmates in that lab, got his PhD in Environmental Science, and immediately moved to La Jolla, CA to work for Synthetic Genomics, making amazing money. After almost three years there he and bunch of his buddies formed their own company, Agradis Inc., which then got bought out by Monsanto two years later. Now he works for Monsanto and still lives in the San Diego area and has done quite well for himself, to say the least.
Another story, one of me former coworkers at Duke University Medical Center was finishing up his PhD, in something like microbiology or immunology, where I was doing HIV research. Anyways, about half way through his PhD, as he was telling me the story, he knew he didn't want to teach or go into research, none of that, but he didn't want to quit the PhD program either. So he finished and graduated from Duke with his PhD, his wife is a grade school teacher, and he immediately took a job in NYC for some venture capital firm, where he is their science consultant, deciding which biotech startups to invest in.
He was showing us his address on the upper east side of Manhattan and me and my coworkers at the time would joke, he's probably making a million or more, granted a million in NYC isn't a lot, but right out of graduate school with your PhD, it's not too bad!
I have no problem with those who choose to pursue a trade instead of going to college.
However, what is left out of it is that every field requires a certain aptitude. Not everyone is cut out to be a plumber, electrician, or machinist. I know people who have pursued every one of those vocations. What they would tell you if you talked to them is that they could usually identify the type of person who would succeed in any of these trades before they ever started. Trade programs often have high failure rates for this reason.
The trades are not a catchall for everyone who does not want to go to college or cannot afford to go to college. They should not be sold as such.
Precisely!
I was trying to make that point earlier - it's not as if someone who was a marginal student in high school is automatically going to become a 100k/yr electrician out of the gate.
If someone can't handle basic/intermediate academic work I question their competence & ability to handle the complexity of something like electrician.
Every time I meet with my general contractor I'm amazed at how he can do algebra & geometry in his head very quickly. I don't know what kind of college background he has if any, but he does the kinds of problems you deal with in at least 100-200 college level math, in his head. I suspect that is an average level of skill needed to make it in his profession.
Last edited by redguard57; 03-28-2018 at 01:47 PM..
I was trying to make that point earlier - it's not as if someone who was a marginal student in high school is automatically going to become a 100k/yr electrician out of the gate.
If someone can't handle basic/intermediate academic work I question their competence & ability to handle the complexity of something like electrician.
Every time I meet with my general contractor I'm amazed at how he can do algebra & geometry in his head very quickly. I don't know what kind of college background he has if any, but he does the kinds of problems you deal with in at least 100-200 college level math, in his head. I suspect that is an average level of skill needed to make it in his profession.
You mean you don't want your house rewired by someone who could barely pass Algebra I in high school?
Even if the car doesn’t depreciate right off the lot, what is it’s value 10 years later? More than you paid or less? Are you still benefitting from that car or did you already trade it in and buy another? No matter how you try and spin it, cars are a depreciating asset.
In contrast, a college education, not for all but for most, is an appreciating asset. It, at the least, is a profit center in the form of earned income where a car will always be a cost center. Even with student debt factored in, money spent on an education is still a better investment than a car.
No one here is trying to compare a car to a college degree. The point is that college degree holders are just as likely to have depreciating assets as non-college degree holders. (FWIW I have my degree)
No one here is trying to compare a car to a college degree. The point is that college degree holders are just as likely to have depreciating assets as non-college degree holders. (FWIW I have my degree)
No, the point that UNC4Me was making was in response to a comment that the average amount of student loans is about the same as the cost of a new car. A car is something most do not hesitate to take out a loan for, but many are reluctant to take out a similar amount for an education.
Yes, most people own cars. That's not the point of discussion.
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