by a huge margin the most amazing Consumer Electronics device I've used...

[Nepenthe]

Originally Posted by Peregrine

Keep in mind there is also the significantly cheaper GOOGLE CARDBOARD. I got a free one from Google. The viewers can be bought for Less then $20. You put your phone in and VOILA... VR.

Originally Posted by Peregrine

It is very cool, I never meant to imply that it isn't. As the OP said it's very fun to show people and since it's cheap, I've had 4 people buy their own cardboard viewers.
I just don't quite agree (yet maybe?!?) that it is life changing.

Ahh. Google Cardboard isn't really VR. Viewmaster is the best GC chassis available today, by the way. You need to try the Vive. It's just a world away from GC.

GC has no positional tracking, no ability to track either controllers or your hands / fingers, it's running on something 1/20th to 1/40th as powerful as a VR-ready PC, and it has only a vague semblance of fully-formed software. GC is fairly similar in some ways to the very first Rift, the DK1 (from four years ago), except not as good. You're basically a disembodied, immobile head.

• With no positional tracking you cannot MOVE. You can't lean in, inspect something closer, jerk back, bend over, crouch, jump, crawl, walk, run, peek around a corner, look over a ledge, move to the other side of something, balance on a tightwire or ledge, move slowly or quickly, etc. And you have no parallax scrolling (because you cannot move your head up and down or side to side or forward and backward), which is actually more important to humans for creating the understanding of DEPTH than stereopsis. Good article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depth_perception
  
• With no tracked controllers you have no way to INTERACT with the world. You can't pick things up, push buttons, paint intricate and detailed art pieces, bat balloons around, play catch with a dog, use a bow and arrow, stack blocks, construct structures, punch things, swing a sword or tennis racket, swirl around in the fluid, pull Blarps with your tethers, fire a gun, mold clay, feel the feedback in your hands, etc. Without Leap Motion Orion you lose nearly perfect tracking of your hands and fingers and lose the ability to manipulate things with great natural dexterity in VR space.

There are a lot of other technical and software drawbacks to GC. Bog standard smartphone screens have relatively high latency tracking and relatively high persistence refresh cycles (both a recipe for nausea). They tend to have low pixel fill percentages (high screen-door effect). You can't adjust IPD or eye relief. Refresh rate is limited to 60 Hz. FOV is 60-70 degrees. Optics are quite rudimentary. And there's very little in the way of immersive space and VR-based interfacing for launching GC software. Most of the stuff I've seen people using in GC/VM is 180 or 360 video or 360 photos, which is not VR (these are not virtual worlds). One of the most amazing things about VR is social VR such as in Alt Space or Big Screen, and GC can't do either of those. We're so far beyond GC as far as presence and interaction now. GC is *definitely* not life changing, agree completely.

[Peregrine]

I said it ISN'T as good as Vive/Occulus.
But for a $5.00 investment, if you are interested in trying VR, it's sure one helluva cheap... and still cool as hell...way to try before you spend more then a grand on a headset and a PC capable of running it.

[Nepenthe]

Oh I know. It's just... it isn't really the same thing. One thing the industry and community is concerned about is GC "poisoning the well." People try it and they think *that's* what VR is and they really have no concept of how you can move and interact in VR from it.

GC is also nausea-inducing for a good number of people (due to no positional tracking, too low refresh, poor IPD adjustment, and many other factors), while 1:1 room-scale movement in the Vive will never create nausea for anyone.

The SteamVR launch trailer, with the green screen mode, even though the software selection shown is just a few of the initial launch demos, actually probably does a better job of helping people understand what it's like to be an active participant in VR than using GC could:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYfNzhLXYGc

Some of the stuff I've done goes way beyond what you see in this video (for instance, I move a lot more in my 14' x 11' space), and there's still no way to convey how personal and present it feels to actually be there with your own head and hands and to be able to move and interact.

[Peregrine]

That's a cool video. I don't think GC will poison the well, though. Once you try it you WANT more. LOL

I might just wait til Gen2 for a Rift. Nice to hear your review of it though. :thumbsup:

I priced out an INEXPENSIVE (comparatively) rig that meets Rifts requirements: $1,300. $500 of that is the GTX 980 Video Card (970 required). So for around $2,000 total.

What are you running it on?

[Nepenthe]

I put together a 6700K, 980Ti, 32 GBs fast RAM, 850 watt PSU, Carbide 540 Air case, 500 GB Samsung SSD for about $1700 in December. I've actually priced out a minimum spec for Rift CV1 and Vive at $842 recently (not including a monitor, mouse, or keyboard).

I actually recommend waiting to a lot of people I talk to and demo for. First gen is for people like me, early adopters, willing to spend a lot more and show a lot of people. Second gen will bring a host of improvements -- double the pixels, 20 extra degrees of FOV, wireless, hand/finger tracking built-in, simple photogrammetry, and eye tracking/foveation and instancing (which will reduce the cost a lot), very mature software, and better form factor, and that's where I think a lot of people will jump in. When the Spielberg film version of Ready Player One hits the tipping point won't be far behind.

Vive is incredible, but I know not everyone will go out and buy one.

[thecoalman]

Originally Posted by Nepenthe

Ahh yes, the tired old "3DTV" comparison. 3DTV had very little going for it. It didn't really do anything for you. I tried it and although I liked Avatar in the theater a lot, 3DTV was unmistakeably lame. Meh.

I actually first saw this back in the mid 80's at Walt Disney World, I can distinctly remember trying to reach out and touch what what appeared to be floating in front of my face. In any event I'm not trying to compare the tech, what I'm comparing is you need to wear something. Once the novelty wears off it's going to be a tough sell.

The Chaperone system keeps me safe.

I'll await the new reports of the sytem getting hacked and people jumping off roofs. ROFL.

I get a REAL workout

That is actually a good benefit especially for these kids that spend so much time on these systems, at least they will moving around.

...and was working in the Kitchen in Job Simulator and got so immersed that I leaned on the counter.

Why not go into a real kitchen and cook something? Funny thing is you tell some kid to go mow the front lawn and they are going to complain, give them one of those and they will do it for hours. LOL


I've been deeply immersed in tech since the early 80's however I have also spent a great deal of my life experiencing things. Lots of outdoor activity and traveling around the country. While VR can mimic these things I don't see how it can replace it. There is certain thrill about doing things and part of that is the risk, take the risk away and you lose something. How do you replace waking up in a tent that is covered with a a foot of snow and there is frost on your pillow from your breath?

Just hope the next generation continues to experience those things in the real world.

[Nepenthe]

Originally Posted by thecoalman

I actually first saw this back in the mid 80's at Walt Disney World, I can distinctly remember trying to reach out and touch what what appeared to be floating in front of my face.

And now it's ten times better in every conceivable way, one tenth as expensive, and available in your home. Many times you can touch what's floating there now, with your controllers (Vive or Touch) or hands (Leap Motion Orion). Two companies (that I know of) are working on form-fitting haptic feedback gloves, but even with Leap Motion Orion many people have reported phantom weight and phantom tingling sensations from manipulating objects with their hands.

Originally Posted by thecoalman

In any event I'm not trying to compare the tech, what I'm comparing is you need to wear something. Once the novelty wears off it's going to be a tough sell.

I wear something on my head for most of the day -- my Audio Technica ATH-M50 headphones. I'm very comfortable with them on and prefer to have them on in fact. They bring me great pleasure and utility. While the form factor and tethered nature needs to improve from the recently launched first-gen Rift CV1 and Vive CV before mass adoption starts being a thing, the pleasure and utility people will derive from VR and AR will, in my opinion, far exceed any concerns about wearing something. People that I've demoed for haven't seemed to mind once they're immersed. I've worn the Vive for several hours at a stretch and been fine and if the resolution were up to it I'd happily work in it.

The pre-order indications for the Playstation VR are startling, as it seems as many as 4-6 million people (of around 38-40 million PS4 owners worldwide) intend to purchase PSVR this year. It's compelling. It is the most comfortable of all VR HMDs thus far devised by man, has excellent screens (RGB sub-pixels instead of pentile and 120Hz refresh with "reprojection") and optics, has tracked motion controllers, and allows some room-scale (about 7.7 feet x 6.1 feet or 47 square feet). The software support for it so far looks tremendous. Granted, a PS4 is only about 1/6th as powerful as a strong PC and its room-scale area and 360 tracking capabilities are limited when compared to the Vive, but I think once this hits in October it will push things along. When Apple and Google (and possibly Nintendo and Microsoft) get into the VR industry in 2017 or 2018, and the Spielberg blockbuster Ready Player One hits theaters, and AR (Magic Leap, Hololens, Meta) starts making inroads, there'll be no stopping the advance of this technology.

Originally Posted by thecoalman

I'll await the new reports of the sytem getting hacked and people jumping off roofs.

Well, if you set up Chaperone and then blatantly go past it, you can certainly walk into a wall or furniture or whatever. But you can do that without VR too, if you want. Chaperone is there to remind you of any physical limitations to your space. I haven't had any problems. I will say that our next house, in time for 2018, will have a 20 x 20 or larger game room for room scale (with super fluffy wall-to-wall carpet), with an attached walk-in closet or other area where I'll put the omni-tread or slip-mill and the PC / desk and steering wheel and HOTAS setup.

Originally Posted by thecoalman

That is actually a good benefit especially for these kids that spend so much time on these systems, at least they will moving around.

I'm in pretty good shape but VR can be a heck of a workout! Many people on Reddit Vive have mentioned what great exercise they're getting with stuff like Space Pirate Trainer, HoloPoint and HoloBall, Blarp!, and many others. Aside from flight sims, space sims, and driving games, VR is intended to be a full body experience.

Originally Posted by thecoalman

Why not go into a real kitchen and cook something?

I do, frequently. But Job Simulator is a game with humor and the ability to do things you wouldn't do in a real kitchen with real consequences. But on that note, one of the other jobs in JS is "Office Worker." I happen to work in an office already, but I enjoyed this mode (though this is by no means in my top 10 VR experiences). I'm being interviewed Monday by a WSJ columnist named Sarah Needleman, she's writing a column about office workers who also have enjoyed playing in the office in VR. And the premise behind this game is that it's the year 2050 and robots do all the jobs and we humans are treated as pets, so the robots devised this simulator to show us what doing various jobs (office, car mechanic, short order cook, clerk, etc.) was like.

Originally Posted by thecoalman

Funny thing is you tell some kid to go mow the front lawn and they are going to complain, give them one of those and they will do it for hours.

Well yah. It's a well-known phenomenon. We use that in certain areas at my company, it's called Gamification. We used that when I used to travel cross-country with my family when I was young -- make a game of it to pass the time more pleasantly. I make games of a lot of the tasks I do in my job or at home. In my role at work I'm involved in a multi-year internal business software development project and we're implementing a few ways to gamify the user experience to keep it fun, fresh, and novel. Several companies are working on VR exercise equipment, so you could be on an exercise bike but seeing a fully 3D rendered environment around you (it could be a realistic portrayal of trails somewhere or you could be biking in space or on an alien planet or in a psychedelic kaleidoscope, and the hills you encounter could be keyed to increased resistance in the bike -- for example). Humans like to play.

Originally Posted by thecoalman

...I have also spent a great deal of my life experiencing things. Lots of outdoor activity and traveling around the country. While VR can mimic these things I don't see how it can replace it.

VR can put you places you could NEVER experience in real life. Or it can let you experience things that are dangerous, remote, or bygone. Or it can let you do things you wouldn't ordinarily do. VR won't replace reality and experience any time soon, though as the tech eventually advances to Brain Computer Interface (in 2050?) it may start to come close.

Originally Posted by thecoalman

There is certain thrill about doing things and part of that is the risk, take the risk away and you lose something.

I agree, to a point, although what I'm finding about VR already is that your brain seriously wants to believe. Plenty of people have felt genuine fear, terror, compassion, wonder, etc. in VR. A good driving setup in VR, in Project Cars or Assetta Corsa, can transport you and put you there. Vestibular stimulation has already been demonstrated (CES this year), which can simulate acceleration and deceleration forces, and this may be included in second-generation VR. At a certain point the immersion turns into presence and presence turns into feeling like you're there and giving yourself over to the simulation. And when you're in VR, quite unlike when you're looking at a screen (whether non-interactive or interactive), you form memories of being somewhere. We will have the ability to create experiences, to put you in the eyes and shoes of another person. That will be powerful.

I think real world experiences will continue to be sought for a couple of generations to come -- going to the Grand Canyon instead of loading Grand Canyon VR, riding a real motorcycle instead of a virtual one, etc. -- but as the tech advances and the years go by at some point it probably will seem too wasteful, time-consuming, and high effort to go do things that you can simulate almost as well (but with the benefit of also being able to do things you can't do in the real world) in VR. I don't think there's anything really wrong with this per se.

[thecoalman]

Originally Posted by Nepenthe

And now it's ten times better in every conceivable way, one tenth as expensive, and available in your home.

Believe it or not the Disney show was amazingly real. This wasn't some side show, it was main attraction with Michael Jackson. The theater was set up to interact with the movie.

Well, if you set up Chaperone and then blatantly go past it,

What I meant was someone hacking the chaperone.

"If your chaperone jumped off the bridge would you jump off to?"......

[Nepenthe]

Originally Posted by thecoalman

What I meant was someone hacking the chaperone.

"If your chaperone jumped off the bridge would you jump off too?"......

Ahh, I see.

After about 8 hours in VR yesterday (Alt Space, Big Screen, my friend's amazing project "Hydra," Budget Cuts, Paintlab, 3 hours in Tilt Brush, Milkdrop, theBlu, Felt Tip Circus, and La Peri, plus a bit of messing around in Unity), I had a bit of time of wondering where the Chaperone bounds were. By far my longest continuous time in my other reality and an amazing (and tiring) day.