How many Southlake Carroll students admitted by Ivy League every year (Dallas: 2015, top schools)
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The old approach of "What degree/major do you think you will like" needs to be turned around. "What degree/major provides the best career opportunities in line with your talents and desires."
While I agree with much of what you have said, I think it is important to recognize that higher education is not and should not be synonymous with career training. There is huge value in becoming an educated person that extends beyond the boundaries of how one's education affects his or her career prospects. College should also be a time when one learns more about history, philosophy, sociology, etc., even if one isn't pursuing careers in those fields.
I'm not sure what the answer is, but I do not like the general trend of colleges being in business to offer career training rather than educations. The world needs educated voters and citizens who are knowledgeable about the world and have the ability to think critically about its greatest problems.
Care to share those quantitative data? A student who graduates high school in Texas is considered a resident for TMDSAS purposes, so he or she doesn't face the uphill battle out-of-state applicants do. What data indicates that Texas residents who have attended Ivies are less likely to be admitted to Texas med schools than Texas residents who attended Texas schools are?
You answered the question. Texas residency gives Texas kids a huge advantage over out of state kids.
And nice job trying to change it up at the end I said nothing of the sort LOL.
The only relevant info. I have is anecdotal at best and the sample sizes per school are tiny etc. A few of my son's classmates are Ivy/MIT/Stanford and other "awesome school" grads. They do very well but in no way dominate as a cadre. As a matter of fact, I'll correct this tomorrow if I'm wrong, I believe one of the Ivy kids had to switch to the 5 yr. program as the he could not deal with the pace and rigor at UTSW. To be fair that happens to good number of kids tho.
For medical school (or MBA) undergrad institution is not that important. But for graduate school in sciences, engineering, etc. it is very important, on average. Having said that, an engineering degree from UT is not any worse, than that from ivy league, and probably better in many cases. In sciences (even though they might be ranked a bit lower) best performing students would still have a great chance for the top graduate programs in their field. But that's UT, not the regional schools.
The college program rankings are a bit out there for my way of thinking. That said both UT and A&M have phenomenal undergrad and grad. engineering rankings as you said on par with all or better than most Ivy programs.
While I agree with much of what you have said, I think it is important to recognize that higher education is not and should not be synonymous with career training. There is huge value in becoming an educated person that extends beyond the boundaries of how one's education affects his or her career prospects. College should also be a time when one learns more about history, philosophy, sociology, etc., even if one isn't pursuing careers in those fields.
I'm not sure what the answer is, but I do not like the general trend of colleges being in business to offer career training rather than educations. The world needs educated voters and citizens who are knowledgeable about the world and have the ability to think critically about its greatest problems.
Summed up, take electives in history, philosophy, sociology, but don't major in it.
While education and being knowledgeable about the world is noble, education is beyond one's self and today our students must reflect on "what contribution can I make for society" and "what skills and talents does society demand now." Observe that after sending junior to college, it is desired that junior find employment and become independent, and self-sustaining. Much of this is due to education, but more importantly via skills and abilities which couple into society and the job market's needs.
It is not what college "offers" it is what the student makes of it. Harvard (often discussed in this thread, so lets use that school as an example why don't we...) will grant a Bachelor's in Folklore, just as it will grant a Bachelors in Electrical Engineering. So is Harvard promoting education or "career training?" Note you can't have your cake and eat it to. So which is it ? Education or Career Training. Or should we replace the term "career training" with "employable degrees" ?
A reflection of world knowledge and critical thinking is none greater when a student recognizes the world's problems, and seeks to make his own contribution.
I would hope that we are not encouraging today's student to be self-serving and ignorant of the issues and problems of the society around them.
Summed up, take electives in history, philosophy, sociology, but don't major in it.
While education and being knowledgeable about the world is noble, education is beyond one's self and today our students must reflect on "what contribution can I make for society" and "what skills and talents does society demand now." Observe that after sending junior to college, it is desired that junior find employment and become independent, and self-sustaining. Much of this is due to education, but more importantly via skills and abilities which couple into society and the job market's needs.
It is not what college "offers" it is what the student makes of it. Harvard (often discussed in this thread, so lets use that school as an example why don't we...) will grant a Bachelor's in Folklore, just as it will grant a Bachelors in Electrical Engineering. So is Harvard promoting education or "career training?" Note you can't have your cake and eat it to. So which is it ? Education or Career Training. Or should we replace the term "career training" with "employable degrees" ?
A reflection of world knowledge and critical thinking is none greater when a student recognizes the world's problems, and seeks to make his own contribution.
I would hope that we are not encouraging today's student to be self-serving and ignorant of the issues and problems of the society around them.
One has to be careful about blanket generalizations. I know a couple of Harvard folklore grads that took jobs in top-tier consulting and finance. Sure, some folklore grads may end up in other fields or have trouble finding good jobs in the folklore field (whatever that is), but I've never seen a state-school-folklore-grad in one of these firms.
I think the real takeaway is that it depends on a lot of factors. In some cases, an Ivy/elite gives a huge advantage, in some cases a Texas school gives some advantage, and in a lot of cases either will work if the student works hard enough and is above some reasonable threshold of intelligence. Hard to make generalizations.
One has to be careful about blanket generalizations. I know a couple of Harvard folklore grads that took jobs in top-tier consulting and finance. Sure, some folklore grads may end up in other fields or have trouble finding good jobs in the folklore field (whatever that is), but I've never seen a state-school-folklore-grad in one of these firms.
I think the real takeaway is that it depends on a lot of factors. In some cases, an Ivy/elite gives a huge advantage, in some cases a Texas school gives some advantage, and in a lot of cases either will work if the student works hard enough and is above some reasonable threshold of intelligence. Hard to make generalizations.
Very true, never even seen many state school grads at McKinsey, BCG, Bain, Booz Allen, etc other than the top state schools across the country, and most of those were engineering or science undergrads. It all depends on where and what you choose to do with your career.
Summed up, take electives in history, philosophy, sociology, but don't major in it.
While education and being knowledgeable about the world is noble, education is beyond one's self and today our students must reflect on "what contribution can I make for society" and "what skills and talents does society demand now."
You are confusing "what society needs" with "what the economy values." Those two are not synonymous. There are many valuable things that are not valued by the economy. In other words, simply because there is a shortage of engineers in the economy does not mean that the world's greatest need is for more engineers.
I believe you've prematurely dismissed liberal arts education. Depending on one's situation, those degrees often serve as a fantastic foundation for grad school or a career in industry.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mom2DFW
Observe that after sending junior to college, it is desired that junior find employment and become independent, and self-sustaining. Much of this is due to education, but more importantly via skills and abilities which couple into society and the job market's needs.
It is not what college "offers" it is what the student makes of it. Harvard (often discussed in this thread, so lets use that school as an example why don't we...) will grant a Bachelor's in Folklore, just as it will grant a Bachelors in Electrical Engineering. So is Harvard promoting education or "career training?" Note you can't have your cake and eat it to. So which is it ? Education or Career Training. Or should we replace the term "career training" with "employable degrees" ?
You are creating a false either/or. Me saying that Harvard offers both career training and education, depending on what one studies, is not me having my cake and eating it, too. I never claimed that certain colleges strictly offer educations and others strictly offer career training. You are attributing claims to me that I never said. My point here is about the increasingly-popular idea that college solely has the purpose of readying one for the workforce. One can get a great education and major in electrical engineering. People have been doing that for years. I never said that getting an "employable degree" was a bad thing.
A reflection of world knowledge and critical thinking is none greater when a student recognizes the world's problems, and seeks to make his own contribution.
I would hope that we are not encouraging today's student to be self-serving and ignorant of the issues and problems of the society around them.
I agree completely! But that doesn't entail that majoring in an employable degree is somehow a greater contribution to the world. This is nonsense. Again, you are confusing the notion of employability with the notion of helping the world. You said yourself that the world doesn't need more attorneys, even if one is able to secure high-paying employment as an attorney.
There are a lot of ways to make the world a better place, and some of those involve being extremely educated about things like art, history, philosophy, literature, etc. One can make the world a better place and major in something that will yield gainful employment. However, that doesn't imply that majoring in the humanities is part and parcel to doing less for the world than majoring in engineering would have done.
One has to be careful about blanket generalizations. I know a couple of Harvard folklore grads that took jobs in top-tier consulting and finance. Sure, some folklore grads may end up in other fields or have trouble finding good jobs in the folklore field (whatever that is), but I've never seen a state-school-folklore-grad in one of these firms.
I think the real takeaway is that it depends on a lot of factors. In some cases, an Ivy/elite gives a huge advantage, in some cases a Texas school gives some advantage, and in a lot of cases either will work if the student works hard enough and is above some reasonable threshold of intelligence. Hard to make generalizations.
Excellent post.
Obviously, no one gets a degree in folklore with the intention of getting a "folklore" job. However, highly intelligent people often end up working in fields other than their field of study, and sometimes majors that seem irrelevant actually build a strong skill set that is highly transferable. For example, philosophy majors have the highest GRE scores of any grad school-bound students. While there is certainly some self-selection occurring, as philosophy is known to attract many highly intelligent students, it is likely no coincidence that a discipline that requires extreme levels of critical thinking produces students who are good at critical thinking. As it turns out, critical thinking is a skill that is valued in many disciplines. Perhaps just as importantly, critical thinking skills make a person a better citizen and equip him or her to improve the world in meaningful ways.
You answered the question. Texas residency gives Texas kids a huge advantage over out of state kids.
And nice job trying to change it up at the end I said nothing of the sort LOL.
Considering that we were talking about college-bound students from Texas, I assumed that discussing Ivy graduates who graduated high school out of state was irrelevant. I thought it was important to clarify that there is in fact no evidence that Texas high school students who go on to Ivy League colleges are less likely than Texas high school students who go on to Texas colleges to be admitted to Texas med schools. The out of state disadvantage is a red herring in this case.
Also, got a peek from a friend of a friend at this year's admissions list for the DFW area, for a certain hyper-selective Ivy League university. About five percent of the local applicants were admitted; that rate is in line with the national average.
This is how many students got into this university this year from each high school:
Plano West: 6
St. Mark's: 3
Cistercian: 2
1 each from:
All Saints, Booker T, Bishop Lynch, DISD Conrad, Flower Mound, Greenhill, Denton Guyer, Newman Smith, Parish, SEM, TAG, Ursuline
0 from:
Southlake Carroll, Hockaday, Plano Senior, Highland Park, all of Richardson ISD, all of Coppell ISD, Hillcrest, WT White, Woodrow, and many others
Will let others draw the conclusions...
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